Team Owners Association/USL Update – 11/21/09
USSF TOA decision
It has been widely reported that the United States Soccer Federation (USSF) will be meeting this weekend in Seattle, Washington to make a decision concerning the breakaway TOA league and their request for a new 2nd division league in the US. Of course parties from the USSF and Major League Soccer (MLS) (who are often one and the same) will be in Seattle for the MLS Cup final which takes place on Sunday evening. IMS has learned several interesting facts about the meeting and other scenarios concerning the TOA League which is said to be named next week.
IMS believes the USSF meeting regarding the new TOA league took place Friday evening and could very well have been the reason for the TOA’s press release yesterday concerning Crystal Palace Baltimore and the Tampa Bay Rowdies. Both teams were named in the TOA press release saying they had left the USL and were joining the TOA. By adding those two teams it brought the total number of teams on board with the TOA to 9. IMS has learned that neither of those teams are in attendance at the USL AGM’s this week.
Kartik Krishnaiyer, who is at the AGM’s in Tampa today, is floating an idea at the Kartik Report that if the TOA get the approval from the league, those two teams could then go back to USL to fulfill their contractual obligations and avoid the lawsuit. They would both then join the TOA in 2011. However, several sources have told IMS that even though there is no rule concerning how many 2nd Division teams are authorized to play in the US, that there is some precedent which may only allow one Division-2 league. If this is true, several scenarios could play out. Of course a decision could be made for either league or perhaps a new TOA league could be formed. That league could be team owner driven but play under the umbrella of USL, at least for the coming season.
Remaining USL Teams
Last week, Jeff Di Veronica of the Democrat and Chronicle in Rochester, New York, stated that Rob Clark would consider switching to the TOA league in 2011 should the USL not show reform in 2010. Now it sounds as if Clark could make a switch earlier than that.
James Weise, news director for the Kick This radio show on WHTK in Rochester, New York, and available online, asked Rochester Rhinos owner Rob Clark on today’s show an important question. Clark, who was in Tampa for the USL AGM’s, was asked if he was concerned with his ability to make a switch to the TOA, should that league look more attractive. Weise framed his question in light of the contractual obligations that Rochester has already made to the USL. Weise’s question was based on the press statement USL made last night concerning yesterday’s TOA announcement that Crystal Palace Baltimore (USL-2 rumored to be moving up to USL-1) and the Tampa Bay Rowdies (new USL-1 expansion team) would switch from USL-1 and join the TOA. USL replied with a terse statement last night saying there would be legal ramifications for those two teams should they continue on a path with the TOA. Clark said, “No, it comes down to what’s the right set for Rochester. The reforms in the USL, the new league — we have an open mind and listen to everybody and make decisions accordingly.”
Jeff Di Veronica then asked Clark, “As of Saturday, November 21, 2009, which league are the Rhinos in.” After a long pause, Clark answered, “We are down here at the AGM listening to the USL right now.” Di Veronica then pressed Clark, saying that really wasn’t an answer in which Clark jokingly replied, “The weather is really nice and its like 80° outside…sunny! ”
Clark’s lack of willingness to answer the question confirms rumors that IMS and its partner site The Kartik Report have been hearing over the last two weeks, that Rochester is recently leaning towards the TOA and will see if the league gets approval from the USSF and will then start to make a decision in what is best for the Rhinos regarding the 2010 season.
Currently there are only 5 teams remaining from last year’s USL-1 season. Austin, Charleston, Portland, Puerto Rico and Rochester, with the expansion team of New York bringing the league to 6. If Rochester left for greener pastures of the TOA, IMS believes Austin, Portland, and Puerto Rico would also leave, bringing the TOA league to 13 and forcing Charleston to move to USL-2 or also change to the TOA league.
Don Garber mentions TOA/USL mess
On Saturday’s MLS Supporters Summit in Seattle, Washington, Don Garber, commissioner of MLS, stated that promotion and relegation would be near impossible in the US at this point and time. Garber used the TOA/USL mess as an example saying, “There’s a lot of chaos going on right now with the USL and now this break off owner-operated association (TOA). Can you imagine if Seattle was relegated into a league …. It couldn’t work and would be a challenge.”
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Anyword on the teams USL claims may come into their league? They already technically lost Baltimore. What about Ottawa?
Rhinos leaving USL would kill that league. Puerto Rico would follow and so on… Next week is going to be interesting. I hope Kartik comes back with some goodies!
Regarding promotion/relegation in other countries, can someone please provide insight on who owns the leagues. Are the different divisions/levles “owned” by the company/firm.
I was just curious how this looks in other countries per MLS’s statement that given the current situation, promotion/relegation would be tough in the USA.
I think that promotion/relegation in desperatly needed in the US from a development standpoint. If “rouge” league are going to hinder a push toward promotion/relegation, I would be in favor of those league dying off. However, it also seems that USL has no interest in promotion/relegation–at least from my prespective.
Ottawa are not in USL’s back pocket as claimed by Popadakis. They say they will wait and see which league to go with.
http://bit.ly/7FFKtj
Hasn’t Clark been on-record before as anti-TOA? Interesting turn of events.
It almost seems as if Mr. Erickson held off on his bid with the USL to wait until the USSF approved the new league. I bet he wants to go that direction.
Any word on Cleveland? Are they dropping down or are they moving to the toa?
As mentioned here several times, it looks as if Cleveland will be under new ownership and move to USL-2.
KJ, yes and no. I think more than anything he had a little running feud with Joey Saputo and the two seemed to spar at one point. But what I had been hearing is that he was waffling a bit. He didn’t like some of the things the TOA were doing and how they were doing it. But there were many things he wasn’t happy about concerning the USL. Schedules was a big sticking point for him.
Knowing that Portland is gone to MLS in 2011, Rochester well then be the big fish in the pond after that with the other bigger teams already going to TOA. I think he has to look out for the best interest of Rochester and that would be to be playing competitive matches against big name teams.
I’m just excited that Garber was even talking about promotion/relegation . . . he’s got a good point in saying it would be a little nuts without established lower leagues, but just that he’s talking about it is fantastic! It will be a great day for US soccer when promotion/relegation is adopted – not only for the fans, but it will provide the extra level of competition needed to take the US game to the next level!
Keep up the good work BQ!
Erik…you’re crazy. Pro-Rel will never, and should never, happen here. Not for at least 50 years.
Watch them fall this week….Rochester followed by Portland and Puerto Rico off to the new league. USL off to the history books.
There is another ottawa group that wants to place a toa team at the baseball stadium.
Erik, thanks for the kind words. Vnice is correct and I think I remember the comish saying it would not happen for a long, long time.
If you pay 45 million for a MLS team how would you feel about your team going down and another team coming up that paid lets say 75 grand? Lets say you play in a stadium thats a high school football stadium with football lines, narrow and holds 10,000. How does that work?
I don’t mean to be at all snippy about this. I love promotion relegation as well and feel some of the best games are those between the lower placed teams at the end of the season. But I’ve never heard anyone explain to me yet how to make promotion and relegation work in this country. It can’t until the infrastructure is built around it. I too would say it will be at least 50 years.
reidjr, yes, you are correct. I read that also. So we have warring groups in Ottawa who have not even started a team there. I’m not sure thats a good thing.
…some of us just want a score board.
Brian, you are correct that promo/releg won’t work in the U.S. today. But big changes start with small steps (new Division 2 league owned and controlled by owners) so think ahead 3-5 years.
Jane, TOA is not a savior. They may have some great ideas and great marketing behind them, BUT, Soccer is still soccer in the US and has the same set of problems whether you are USL, TOA, MLS, NASL, or Janes League.
I love the game or I wouldn’t be writing this blog. But soccer falls way down the pecking order in this country. That’s just the truth. However, MLS seems to be finding a way to navigate through all of this. Yet there teams are still losing money big time if not for SUM. If you are not familiar with SUM then go educate yourself and come back and lets talk.
As well, I would suggest you watch the MLS supporters summit from yesterday. http://bit.ly/7F3yuB Good stuff and I think you will know a lot more about the difficulties leagues have with things after watching this and how creative they can also be.
However, that doesn’t change a thing with Pro/relegation. I just told you why it wouldn’t work and you have not given me one good reason why it could work nor will you be able to come up with one because we are rushing things. The growth in other countries that have pro/relg was more organic and slow, all coming together at the same time and that time was 100 years ago or so.
Our growth in this country has been much more commercial driven and although moving fast has not been even. Because of that not everyone is on the same playing field, literally and figuratively. Slow down Jane, it will happen someday but the playing field will need to be more even both in terms of money and infrastructure.
Lets try this one more way. The Austin Aztexs move up. They are playing on a high school football field that they lease for lets say $3,000 a game. NY Red Bulls go down and they’ve just invested 200 million in their stadium. Explain to me how that can work?
Jane, with all due respect, no matter how the Division 2 chaos is resolved promo/relegation possibilities won’t even be a reality in 3-5 years. It just can’t work in the US & Canada. Garber is just using the current choas to try to relay MLS stance. No team that has ownership that has ponied up tens of millions of dollars just to buy in is going to allow itself to be relegated.
I don’t know if 30-50 years would be enough…
BQ: You and Kartik and absolutely crushing in your coverage of this sorry soap opera. You were in the lead a month a ago and you still are…
Thanks Jay!
BQ-
Erik will have a good case for Pro/Relegation on how it can all work, but in short, if there are certain groundrules in place (such as not playing in a crappy high school stadium) there would be more of an incentive for Pro/Relegation to work.
Also, you must have a cool scoreboard.
Hi Brian. You & Kartik are doing a great job. Thanks for all the info you provide us.
Let’s hope we’ll have the NASL or (better) a MLS 2nd Div. (without P&R).
Brian you need a link where your faithful readers can donate money to your site/you. Your writing is very good and is greatly appreciated. Do you have anything coming on Dean Johnson, that is still the story that I hope turns in a positive direction. Thanks for you work, and I am serious about donations you deserve it even if you don’t want it.
Thanks Jorey. Some sites ask for donations. I don’t know if I feel comfortable with that. I am of Scandinavian decent after all.
I have had vendors tell me they want to advertise on my site and I need to be more proactive with that but it too takes time and its something I’m finding myself with very little of. To the best that I can figure out, it probably costs me about $500.00 a year to run the site right now and that comes out of my own pocket on top of the fact that I spent countless hours working on the site. So someday some return would be good, at the least to recoup my costs.
My #1 goal which I think you know Jorey from 1st hand experience, is to grow the game in the state of MN. I hope I am doing that by providing a website that is sort of a clearinghouse for information as to what is going on with soccer in the state.
Hopefully, soon, I can get my act together and start adding sponsor to the site.
few comments based upon previous posts.
1. yes soccer has a long way to go in the U.S. But the only chance it has to grow is expansion. FIFA would like to limit all leagues to 18 teams. MLS is close to the limit and recently has been touting they will go to 20. Either way they are close and soon will be seeing an end to the excessive franchise fee of $35-40M. So how is expansion possible given this?
2. At least the TOA group of owners are not giving up and a broad based Division 2 league will help soccer grow a lot faster than just seeing a couple more MLS teams.
3. yes Austin and Cleveland should never have been allowed in USL-1. Playing games on a high school lined football field was horrible. This is what happens when you have league owners more interested in the franchise fee than sticking with FIFA and USSF standards. From what I hear the TOA will follow the standards of both.
All of us who want to see soccer grow should be rooting hard for the owners. In every sports league in history it was entrepreneur owners who made things happen. They are the ones with the money and the passion. And they are smart enough to bring new teams into their leagues who have the financial resources and committed to following the standards.
And yes Brian I am very familiar with SUM. So don’t think for one moment these TOA guys don’t have a similar plan for commercialization of the new league….which has been the major thing missing under the USL regime whose only interest was the franchise fee.
Kartik is wrong, misled and not responsible when if wrote ..
“if the TOA get the approval from the league, those two teams could then go back to USL to fulfill their contractual obligations and avoid the lawsuit. They would both then join the TOA in 2011.” Kartik DO THE MATH..Tampa Bay has a (3)-THREE year deal to plan USL. If they are leaving its now! not after one year. I expect them both to be sued for breach of contract!
Good post Jane. I too have heard that the TOA have a SUM type plan that they would eventually like to move toward.
I’m guessing we will hear something this week from USSF and then the majority of this sniping will be over. There will always be some who are unhappy with the conclusion but we do need to start moving forward one way or another.
Irv says it will go USL’s way and Jane says TOA. Should we do a poll?
Does Irv have a copy of the contract? There are oftentimes opt-out clauses, etc… which could allow them to walk away. Unless we all know the details it is just speculation on everyone’s part.
Brian – did you see the comments from Graber regarding MLS wanting Montreal as the 19th team? Whether it’s USL or TOA, both leagues need to solidify a pipeline of future teams with Portland, Vancouver, and then possibly Montreal moving up into MSL (and we all know St. Louis has previously bid on a team and has a WPS squad). There will need to be some new cities to offset the dilution. If the TOA league does come to life it would appear that they would almost become more of an MLS2 than USL.
BQ…one word: Swag!
I would happily pony up for an IMS sticker or button at a handsome margin for yourself.
And SR, by “cool scoreboard”, I assume you mean one cool enough to have wheels for portability. One that is 2 feet above the field. And one that works sporadically.
Pat, that is exactly what i am talking about.
I fully realize that pro/rel is a ways off and I completely understand that no owner who threw up that kind of cash is going to want that risk. However, that’s also precisely the problem.
Once the league is filled with 18/20 teams, they will protect that ownership fiercely and if I was an owner I would probably want to do the same. Then what happens to all the entrepreneurs who want to get in the market? What happens to the viability of the lower leagues after MLS seeks to solidify its control of the market? Where do all those talented players go who don’t quite make the first cut in MLS? I’d be off to Europe in a heart beat as my chances of career advancement are much better in a d2 or even d3 league that not only has more exposure but also has the chance of promotion. Where there is global competition for players, a franchise system just won’t be able to compete with pro/rel leagues because they can only provide good opportunities for the top division players. More importantly, what drives competition once your franchise is ensured a spot? I don’t know about you, but I can’t wait for first Montreal Expos in MLS – how many years did that team suck with no consequence?
You could also consider all the public policy dimensions here as well, not to mention living up to our free market mantra as a society – but that’s for another discussion.
At the end of the day, you’re all probably right that it won’t happen, but I think that will also doom professional soccer in the US to eternal second class status (not that it will be bad, but it will never be the top league in the world). I think it’s pretty hard to argue against the idea that increases in competition will increase the level of play and a franchise system just can’t put that much pressure on teams to compete at the next level.