Discussing USSF D2 Pro League and MLS Reserve League on “It’s Called Football”
I was a guest tonight on It’s Called Football out of Toronto, Ontario. The show was hosted tonight by Ben Rycroft of the Toronto Metro News.
Ben and I discuss all things D2 including the important meeting next Monday, August 9th, where the USSF will share with the United Soccer Leagues, the North American Soccer League and the teams in the D-2 pro league, their findings after 4 months of meetings with teams in the league. It’s expected that US Soccer will roll out new standards for all teams that want to participate in D2 from this point forward. This most likely will be done before they allow organizations to make bids for sanctioning of the league for 2011. Many believe that the USSF may just sanction the league again themselves until things stabilize more and the USSF gets through with their bid process for the 2018 or 2022 World Cup.
We also discuss the possibility of a partnership with MLS and D2 as MLS looks at starting up a reserve league. We explain how both USL and NASL have been in discussions with MLS concerning this possible partnership. It’s a possibility and we talk about when and how that might happen.
My interview starts at the 21 minute mark.
I hope you get a chance to listen as Ben and I will catch you up on the inside scoop of what’s happening behind the scenes in D2.
The interview is fairly slow to load so please be patient.
If you want to know more about the 4 part series I wrote called Rethinking Division-2 Soccer in North America please click here.
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I totally agree with you on Edmonton FC. While I do like the organization, and I do like the way things are going, they are just way out there. Unless the NASL plans on bringing in Calgary, Victoria, Winnipeg (which is actually closer to you guys), I just feel that travel for Edmonton is going to be a nightmare.
Now maybe they have the funds for travel? I really don’t know. But if Edmonton does, that doesn’t mean the teams traveling to Edmonton have the funds.
But you are right about teams coming into either the USL or the NASL without any though as far as geography. It almost seems like a “oh, you want to join our league….ok”.
And, so far, the vetting process for both leagues have been quite poor. In the USL, you have Steve Donner coming in, being welcomed with open arms, after running Rochester into the ground. On the other hand, you have the NASL and Jeff Cooper. But I think the difference between these two is that, with Donner, you know what you have. He has a history of mismanaging money. With Cooper, I don’t think he was totally honest, and his reluctance to tell either the WPS or NASL about the Vaid brothers shows that kind of shortsightedness.
Who is to run it? Who knows, but the USL and NASL haven’t looked too strong so far. And arguing their cases on Aug 9th might not be easy.
I like the idea of having MLS reserve teams in D2. It fills out areas of the country so that D2 can truly regionalize. Edmonton FC would have a trio of MLS reserve teams close by, throw in Victoria, Kitsap, maybe the Seattle wolves.
The West would have CA’s 3 reserve MLS teams plus the mysterious western soccer conference teams.
You’d have to split the east into mid atlantic and NE conferences and the Florida teams might have to play in the Caribbean Conference (you’d need Atlanta and maybe Birmingham to happen if you want a southern conference).
That would leave maybe a heartland conference.
And if they do regionalize (And NASL/USL play happy together) I’m not sure we need D3 with
a handful of teams. Move them up and just have a minor league with lots of rivalries.
Sure that’d leave some differences in quality of squads between teams but if Man U and Stoke can
do it, why not.
All of this completely depends on what the new standards are that USSF is about to impose on D-2. If they raise the bond to say, $800,000, from $350,000, it stands to reason that some teams, like Rochester, Minnesota and Baltimore will have a hard time with this number.
One thing I would like to know is if the bond is only for the individual team or can the league (USSF/USL/NASL) use the bond from one team to help bail out another team in the interest of preserving the league and the season? If so, then the teams cannot control what happens to that bond and they may incur losses on the bond as additional expenses beyond the team’s normal operations.
I really think key is going to be the final standards set by USSF.
Brian, with all of your expertise and the respect you garner from the blogging community, I don’t understand your position on not talking about what is ‘sanctioning’? and why does ‘sanctioning’ matter? What other sport in the U.S. has this kind of ‘sanctioning’?
Mitch, I’m a pretty busy guy and just don’t want to take a lot of time talking about something that I don’t believe is going to happen.
A) FIFA controls soccer across the world and as I often say, is more powerful and richer than the Catholic church.
What international body controls: Baseball, football, hockey, basketball?
Soccer is a global game much more so than any other sport. It’s the most popular sport in the world, correct? US Soccer MUST comply with FIFA or as we saw last fall with Chile, they almost were tossed from the WC until a 2nd division team complied with their countries federation. Remember, the US is trying to get a very important WC bid. How would an unsanctioned league fit into that picture right now?
B) Players do not want to play in a league that isn’t sanctioned. Of course it may not be a huge issue for a D2 or D3 players to play in a non-sanctioned league. Then again if he gets a better offer from a sanctioned league the USSF may not allow them to play. I talked to players about this last fall when we threw that idea around. Guess what, it just didn’t fly.
So I will now challenge you. Instead of just talking about how its possible to play unsanctioned, which is of course true. I want you to go out and actually start interviewing players in MLS and D2 and more importantly their agents who understand the ramifications of playing in a non-sanctioned league. Let us all know what those players and agents thought about playing unsanctioned.
I’m really not trying to be a smart ass here but there is a reality. You can buck the system all you want. I have no problem if you write every post you make on your site about the issue. But it’s not my cause and I’m not that bothered by it. Therefore I’m not going to spend a lot of time on it.
And now for something completely different
I don’t get it – “It’s Called Football” out of Toronto and there is no mention of the Toronto Argonauts??
I guess I initially thought Edmonton joing D2 soccer would be great. However, I did not think about travel costs. I just did a quick trip check on the WWW through a major airline flying out of MSP. The round trip ticket is about $1100 per person! You multiply that by 15-18 players–and going there 3-4 times per season–now you are talking about a lot of money just for airfare. You also have to consider meals, ground transportation, lodging and incidentials. OUCH!!!
The NASL/USL need to bury the hatchet and put their heads together before we kill soccer in North America! I would also like to see MLS at the table, and the USSF making sure everyone gets along.
Interesting podcast guys. I really enjoyed it.
I especially liked your comment about a the need for someone to step up with some kind of long term vision.
We all know North America is a tough place to start a club, and you’ve got to be able to walk before you can run. So it makes sense that the powers that be have taken a wait-and-see approach. But without some kind of shared long term goal for all our leagues, I think it makes the business of pro soccer in North America even more difficult.
Take the J League: since the league instituted their 100 Year Vision project, they went from an 18 club league with several teams in serious financial trouble, to a 36 team league (18 in J1, 19 in J2), with average attendance of nearly 20k in J1 and over 6.5k in J2.
Granted, to compare Japan and its leagues to what’s going on in North America is like comparing apples and… err some exotic Asian fruit. Now, I’m not trying to tout the J League as a great model to follow, but they’re a great example of how effective a collective vision can be in terms of growth and -arguably- better results for the national team.
It takes some real chutzpah to state in real terms where you want to see your fledgling league in a century (even if it is probably not going to happen – 100 pro clubs? seriously?). But as a potential season ticket holder, and as an imaginary billionaire investor, that makes me want to be part of the action a lot more than living CBA to CBA.
P.S. Sagantosu FTW!
http://www.j-league.or.jp/eng/jclubs/
http://www.j-league.or.jp/data/view.php?d=j1f&t=visitor&y=2010&l=E
http://www.j-league.or.jp/data/view.php?d=j2&t=visitor&y=2010&l=E
18 + 19 = 36?
Oops. Brain fart.
Why dose MLS need D2 to start a reserve League what if they took some PDL teams and start their own league. You can run a PDL team pretty cheap. The single structure work for now why do we need break it if the MSL start their own reserve League they can slowly grow their own talent and use it at will. The MLS need to be independent of D2 and D3 it what best for both of them.
As I said in the interview Sounder75, MLS is going to do what MLS sees fit to do. Of course they will do whatever is in their best interest – and I am not saying D2 starts a reserve league. I’m saying D2 uses the teams that are already there and incorporates their reserve players into it.
Also, every owner of a D-2 team I’ve ever talked to would love to be affiliated somehow with MLS. They feel it would give them a bit more clout of legitimacy.
Starting a PDL League? Hmmm, sounds a lot like the old reserve league. Seriously, the idea is to create a partnership that allows players from MLS to develop and to get in high level games if they are not getting regular play time in MLS games. This needs to be done in a way that is not to costly for MLS (Reserve league was) and in a much more competitive structure than previously with the reserve league. The games need to mean something, where there is pressure on the player to perform and win because the teams management is depending on them. A D2 team lives and dies by the gate. A winning team is usually a drawing team. These things all make a difference Sounder75. To me, the higher the competition the better for the MLS reserve player.
Another advantage to playing in a D1 or D2 situation is you are playing with wily veterans who have been playing the game professionally for sometimes as long as 10 years or more. So you are getting something different from a D-1 team than a bunch of young players playing together in a league just like they did in youth club soccer where there reward is a trophy and a medal at the end of the season. These players need to understand that the reward is a full house which means better contracts and more playing time.
D-1 is far more competitive than PDL. There are bigger dollars and better players involved. That’s the biggest reason for making that scenario work. Remember, PDL has more restrictions on overage players and paid players cannot compete with non-paid players on a team. Teams like Kitsap Pumas avoid that by making sure all players on their team are no longer looking for college eligibility. That can be done as well, but you still have other restrictions.
A D1 or D2 would not have as many restrictions as to bringing players down for a half a season or lets say a month.
Also, you can reinvent the wheel or save yourself money by using an infrastructure that is already there.
This stuff seems obvious to me but I realized after writing it that perhaps its not and it actually might make a good post. Thanks for the idea Sounder75.
MLS also needs D-2 to be independent if it wants to remain a single entity. MLS won the player labor court battle partly by citing there was another professional league in which these players could work, so MLS was not really a monopoly.
Brian’s comments on the reality of the need to be sanctioned was much more eloquently written that what I tried to present a few posts ago, as it relates to the “Western Conference”.
No one wants to piss off FIFA, and that goes from the Federation to the leagues to the teams to the players.
I don’t think the USSF would have a problem sanctioning the Western Conference at D3.
Anyway BQ, have you heard anything about the Orlando-USL franchise? They are tied to hte NLL Orlando Titans, who folded last week. Looks like USL1 is down one more franchise before they even kicked-off.
“I’m saying D2 uses the teams that are already there and incorporates their reserve players into it.”
Even though I’d rather not see division 2 emulate a minor league baseball model, I still have to agree that that’s probably the best way to go. I can just see the headlines, “Brian McBride sent to AAA Iowa as he recovers from injury”. However, just because D2 teams incorporate MLS reserve players into their rosters, that doesn’t mean they have directly affiliate themselves with a specific (small group of) MLS clubs.
Any ideas, fellow arm-chair commissioners?
I’d like to see MLS reserves LOANED to D2 teams through the FIFA transfer windows (about a half-season at a time). The AAA-model is terrible! Loaning works, and most of all, it’s FIFA-approved.
Current USSF Rules for D2:
2.2.3 MLS to D-2 Professional Teams
1. Each loan must be executed for an entire playing season.
2. Each D-2 Team is permitted a maximum of THREE (3) MLS players on its Master
Roster at any time. There is no limit on the total number of MLS players which
compete on a given D-2 Team during the course of the season.
3. In order to add a Player via loan, the D-2 Team must have available roster space,
with a maximum of 27 players at a time to allow for the maximum number of loaned
Players.
4. All loan Players are still subject to D-2 foreign Player limits.
5. Players are permitted to move between Teams during the period of the loan per
FIFA rules, however it is encouraged for these players to be regular members of the D-
2 Team for the season.
6. A MLS loan Player must compete (defined as actually appearing in the game beyond
being listed on the game-day lineup) in at least FIVE (5) matches for a D-2
Team in order to be eligible for that particular league’s playoffs, FOUR (4) of those
games must occur PRIOR to the Roster Freeze. This is further subject to the player
being properly listed on the final Master Roster submitted at the respective league’s
Roster Freeze date.
7. A specific MLS player may not compete on more than two (2) D-2
Teams during the course of the season. Should the player have competed in the
minimum number of games to be eligible for playoffs on multiple teams, his MLS team
shall determine which D-2 team (if any) he shall be available for during the playoffs.
No MLS player may be listed on the final roster of or compete for more than one D-2
Team after the Roster Freeze.
8. Any MLS player legitimately on the final Master Roster of a USSF D-2
Team at the time of the Roster Freeze date will be permitted to compete for the D-2 Team for the rest of the season, regardless of whether or not that player is subsequently traded or transferred to another MLS team. In this instance, it is possible that a newly executed loan agreement would be required by D-2. However, if a player is released from his contract with his MLS team, this will terminate the player’s loan with the D-2 team.
9. SPECIAL EXEMPTION (GOALKEEPERS): In the event a D-2 Team is reduced to
a single “available & healthy” goalkeeper due to injury or national team call-up, the team will be permitted to acquire a backup goalkeeper from MLS (without regard to MLS Player classification) via loan without restriction on the period of that loan. This may only be done if at least three goalkeepers are on the club’s Master Roster at that time and regularly with the team throughout the season. D-2 has the power to reject the addition of an emergency backup goalkeeper if it finds that the primary purpose of this addition is to create a competitive advantage.
Nice find, Brian! Thanks!
Great info, Brian. I was wondering what kind of arrangements they already have between d2 and MLS.
One thing I’m curious about is how a loaned player’s wages are paid. Is the parent club still responsible for the player wages in full, or are they shared by both clubs? If they were to expand or loosen the current rules for MLSers in D2, I would imagine they would want some kind of standardized rules regarding player wages.
This isn’t so much a comment, as much as it is brown-nosing.
You put a ton of work and research into this blog and I’m amazed.
Also, as a long-life fan of the Rochester Raging Rhinos I felt quite a surge of pride when you touted our team as the most stable club not slated to join MLS, I know 5,800 other people who would feel the same.
Along with Mac Kandji, the Red Bulls also have Carlos Mendes who I watched play in Rochester for a few years as an example of USL First Division producing MLS-quality players.
The MLS wouldn’t be able to hold it’s own reserve league, and the travel costs would still be too high without regional play in the second division. I like the third division for MLS reserve teams. The minimum salary for MLS reserve players is ridiculous as you said. 30,000 is crazy when the minimum for players who contribute is only 40,000. But most of the “reserve” players may be more aptly called “academy” players because per MLS roster rules, wouldn’t they have to be American developing youth players so they won’t count against the team’s set number of players or salary cap. Maybe I’m just confusing the rules and formulating them the way I want, but that seems to me to be the biggest point of the issue. It is not as if these are foreign players, these players would have to (I think) be American players. This would kill two birds with one stone, develop young American players and develop the minor leagues of soccer in North America. And importantly, I think this would be in the interest of MLS and therefore is sure to happen at some point down the road.
On a side note, I was a bit skeptical of the influence of the MLS because of all the sinister portrayals of the single entity structure and restrictive practices therein, but most of the clubs in the division two and three picture need some guidance. That being said, this could just fuel the arrogance Rhinos fan have. While we were never a serious contender for an MLS expansion bid, every cycle we were at least listed as a possibility and the mess that almost every other d2-d3 team faces may not necessarily apply to Rochester. That kind of leaves us in limbo, we are too small for MLS but I don’t think we’re in the dire straits enough to seek an escape to d3 or pray for the same type of restructuring.
Thanks for the kind words Brenden. I am now hearing that the reserve MLS league will be back next year. In the words of Talking Heads, “Same as it ever was.” However, you might be surprised to hear who might be commissioner of the organization. More on that in the future. I do believe that MLS will someday work with D3, possibly D2 in the future but not at this time. I think more meaningful games is important for these young players and playing with and against veteran players is the only way to go if they truly want these youngsters to get ready to play at a higher level. Spain, and Germany use there lower division for their reserve squads. England doesn’t and many have criticized the reserve games as having the same problem. Not enough is on the line to make meaningful competition.
While I was reading about Spurs transfers, I ran across this quote about and by Man U youngster Matthew James in an article about John Bostock and I think it is shades into a wonderful argument against the reserve system in England…
“Matthew is playing competitive football where people are playing for their livelihoods. It’s hard but you can see the change in him.”
Midfielder James is relishing the prospect of a year at Deepdale, adding: “I went out on loan last year and played 18 games for Preston. As soon as you go out playing first-team football you are in everyone’s eye.
“There are men there who need to win. There are 15,000 people paying to watch you – you have to turn up. At youth team you might have 200 people watching, you haven’t got 15,000 on your case.”
To be frank, who cares about a reserve league?
What was the attendance during the last try?
Chicago Fire PDL teams currently draw a whopping 53 people to games across the street or even in the main Toyota Park in Bridgeview.
The Portland Timbers youth team drew 616 spectators on average this past PDL season.
NY Red Bulls U23 Academy plays in the NPSL, and Chicago Fire also has a team in the NPSL.
And 11 MLS clubs have teams in the US Soccer Development Academy at the 15/16 and 17/18 age levels. This is where Andy Najar rose to prominence for D.C. United before he started tearing up players in the MLS, but I don’t think the Development Academy teams should play into any new Reserve Division (at least the 16s group).
The reserve players would have to have contracts with the MLS club, that’s 30,000 minimum salary proposed * 18 players in a squad = 540,000 just to pay the reserve players, add that to the travel costs and I don’t know what the MLS is thinking. The academy level has produced Najar (17), NY has just signed Juan Agudelo(17), and Chicago Fire is about to sign Victor Pineda(17) or another player.
Personally, I would put more money into the academy system that is already working, but I’m not a club manager/owner or league commissioner.
I don’t really know what to make of all of this, but it’s sure going to be interesting.
Thats an interesting find: http://is.gd/edtyL