Follow Up on Carolina RailHawks; Brian Wellman Responds to IMS Report
Neil Morris writing for the Triangle Offense blog talked to RailHawks president Brian Wellman yesterday. He confirmed by phone the IMS report filed on Sunday that a deal had fallen through and that Selby Wellman had reached out to the NASL asking for help to keep the team operating for the 2011 season.
The current owners just don’t want to be involved anymore and they don’t want to operate at a loss. They need to find new investors and new owners of the club, and that’s going to take longer than the business needs right now to keep operating. Brian Wellman
Wellman continued, “That means the league, Traffic Sports, etc. will step in to keep it going for now until we figure out how the new deal is going to be structured with the owners.”
Wellman also said he didn’t think the player payroll, which is reported to be one of the higher in the league, would change much for next season: “I don’t think the payroll is going to change a lot,” he says. “It looks like maybe two, three, or four of our guys might be moving on to another club in Europe or possibly MLS. We hate to see any of them go, but if they can get an opportunity in Europe or MLS, that’s great for them. But, they’ll be some changes in player personnel but not really a lot of change in the payroll.”
For the full article please see Neil Morris’s piece posted last night.
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“… there’s some other things that Traffic has a lot of interest in with Carolina because Traffic over the past few years has started to get into the player development business, transferring and moving players from South America, mainly Brazil, to other countries, including Mexico and the U.S. They see [Carolina] as a team that’s clearly figured out how to produce on the field and how to develop players, so they have a lot of interest from that standpoint in what we do.”
They are just trying to get as many players as possible under their umbrella so they can cash in on them. Shady, shady, shady.
Rabble Rouser,
You mean just like all the other player agents around the world? I’m not going to sit here and defend Traffic per se, but I think you can hardly call trying to get players “under their umbrella” is shady. If they are doing it without regard for player than you have an issue. But you are making a blanket statement here that is all about what most player agents do.
Wouldn’t say it’s shady. It’s soccer business. All Traffic is trying to do is get a very strong foothold on the US player market. But I would say that it’s concerning. Having a lot of talent tied up under Traffic’s contracts could actually cause problems if they can’t get players regular playing time on solid teams. I probably don’t entirely understand the business, but it somehow seems different from players having agents, and agents working to find them teams.
I wish I could clearly articulate why it worries me, but it does. Maybe it’s just that they’ve done such a crappy job running the Miami franchise that I don’t trust their ability to do anything else. Boss’ career, despite getting national team time and an award from the USSF, doesn’t exactly give me any more confidence.
Personnaly, I have no problem with a team owner that has for principal goal the development of its players. Anyways, isn’t it the dream of any soccer player to play in the best leagues of the world?
@Rabble Rouser
How do you think the most up and coming clubs in the world make money? Teams like Marseilles have become European powerhouses by bringing up youth through their own ranks (and in some cases sniping youth from other academies) and selling their rights around the world.
If Traffic are selling the rights to these players in the players’ best interest, then more power to them. Think of it this way: some of these players are of a high enough caliber that they’re getting looks from European clubs. But if Traffic weren’t propping up teams like the Railhawks, the teams would fold, and those skilled players would have nowhere to showcase their talent and no one to advocate for them on the international market.
@BQ – Here is what is most concerning to me about this whole situation:
“The current owners just don’t want to be involved anymore and they don’t want to operate at a loss. They need to find new investors and new owners of the club, and that’s going to take longer than the business needs right now to keep operating.” Brian Wellman
Maybe I’m not reading this right or something, but it sounds to me like it is saying the Wellmans are no longer intersted in owning the Railhawks. Is that really what this means? As seemingly the most staunch member of the breakaway TOA along with Traffic, I had not to date heard or read anything that lead me to believe something like this was even a remote possibility. I’m really hoping that I’m just not understanding something here……
I still find it really curious that several of the team owners who were at the vanguard of the TOA/NASL revolution are relying on Traffic to survive.
ATL & Carolina
NSC-I’m not going to put in that category because they were just trying to salvage what the previous owner–who will remain nameless (cough! cough! The would be Messiah of Belgian and Minnesota football clubs) left gutted.
Sifenote: Carolina may pay pretty well but it is offset a bit by the fact that (and maybe this has changed since the info was shared with me a couple seasons ago) they didn’t provide any housing to players (like some other clubs), they kicked in a few hundred for a living stipend. It’s the Triangle area so you have to keep the relative cost of living in mind…
Seems like a great place to play. Nice area. Nice stadium. Exciting franchise.
I wonder if they are going to have to cut back on the high profile friendlies with Latin American clubs–those have to cost some coin…
Strikers Return,
I think that’s fair to say and I don’t exactly think that’s new news. Again, they’ve been looking for investors for some time now. No one wants to continue to lose that sort of money year after year. Wellman still believes in what the NASL is doing. I think he just can’t continue to sustain the losses.
I can tell you that there has been some criticism from supporters in the area that they did not really do a great job of marketing the team down there. They’ve done well with sponsorships, better than most teams have. But not so good in getting butts in the seats.
I think it would be fair to say that Selby believed if you put a top product on the field that would draw fans. While that is partially true, I think people like Peter Wilt would argue that fact and say it’s more about the marketing and putting a competitive team on the field than putting the best team. It’s a fine balance and I believe it changes from market to market.
But I’m still, I don’t even know the word, incredulous maybe, that people who get involved in ownership groups in soccer in this country, especially below the MLS level, can’t seem to understand going in that operating with some hefty losses, particularly the first few years, is pretty much inevitable. You have to have almost a perfect storm in place to get beat this (like a Montreal maybe?).
I’ve maintained for as long as I’ve paid attention that the #1 issue hands down for D2 soccer is marketing, or more accurately, the lack there of. It almost turns into a chicken and the egg syndrome – you need more butts in seats and buying concessions and merch to make more money to be able to fund marketing, but without the marketing, you’re missing a lot of opportunity to get more butts in seats……So in the end the only real option is as I said above – riding out losses, that hopefully can turn around if you’re doing things right and get the support you need from fans.
The USSF standards had verbiage to address this I believe, right? Maybe we’re just really beginning to see that these standards are far too much for this country to bear. By no means am I giving up on the NASL, but the road to growth and possible stability seems to be littered with more and more obstacles every day.
I think if Traffic and the remaining other owners have a TRUE desire to have the NASL survive more then the next year or two, they are going to need to use this PMI firm to aggressively market every team in every market. If they are true soccer communities, economic issues withstanding, they’ll hopefully come out and supoprt the teams, and at least allow for a basic foundation to be established. It looks more and more like everything is going to hinge on the success of this formula to provide growth right from the get go league wide. Being able to show some staying power is the ONLY way new investors are going to be found for the existing clubs as well as expansion clubs.
This is really a shame. If we don’t get more people at division two games (damn Southerns and their thinking about soccer), in particularly Carolina RailHawks, we may see division two soccer in this country fall apart completely. We need to support NASL, and as fans try to understand, we need a stronger, more technically sound organization to represent division two. I would really hate to loose division two soccer in this country. As a southern, I enjoy the beautiful game so much. The marketing appeal of professional soccer in Cary/Durham/Raleigh, North Carolina is awful, to say the least. You hardly hear much about the games on TV, radio or major media outlets. Only independent media outlets mention the games for the most part. We need to find a way to appeal to the masses and promote the games city wide and get butts in the stadium.
@ Brian Quarstad you said “I think it would be fair to say that Selby believed if you put a top product on the field that would draw fans. While that is partially true, I think people like Peter Wilt would argue that fact and say it’s more about the marketing and putting a competitive team on the field than putting the best team. It’s a fine balance and I believe it changes from market to market.”
I think you are right to be truly successful you have to have the both product and marketing. I think the real problem with this league is not so much the product but marketing. I think the NASL as a whole need to reach a wider fan base that can only be done by TV. You can’t just rely just word of mouth of a good product fill to seats. The number of fan the league is pull are good for the sport but it don’t sustain the league. The MLS can do it because it has TV rights and ok marketing and a good product but even with that they are barley making I can’t even phantom what havoc it is playing of the NASL budget. The NASL is tiring to get better but at this rate if it keeps on this way it is the financial loss it going to be its down fall of a the league.
“I can tell you that there has been some criticism from supporters in the area that they did not really do a great job of marketing the team down there. They’ve done well with sponsorships, better than most teams have. But not so good in getting butts in the seats.”
Brian, what stats do you have that the Railhawks did well in sponsorships? Blue Cross Blue Shield was the jersey sponsor, Time Warner Cable was also a big sponsor (sponsor of the pressbox?), and Wake Med Hospital of the soccer park. Other than that they do not have any big sponsors. In the triangle market the only marketing the Railhawks did was via a state wide tv channel. They were the only station that also covered the team, with the little coverage they did have. In my conversations with staff members the Railhawks owners think that because the CASL’s, TFC’s, etc. are close that every game should have 4,000 people in the stands. That is far from the truth. The only people that attend Railhawk games are people that like and want to watch. The team has done nothing to convince residents of Cary/Raleigh to go to games. Sure, there were promotions but when their are no dollars put forward to spread the word, then no one will hear about the promotions.
If the team spent 1/4th of that player salary on marketing, this would be a different story. Sure the product might be a little worse but look at teams like Charleston and now Rochester. They are in (and will be) in a lower division yet they still will out draw the RailHawks by 1,500 on any given night.
It is almost like Wellman is shocked that they loose money. What mid-level sports team actually makes money minus minor league baseball as they don’t pay salaries.
I almost wonder if there needs to be some sort of salary cap for D2 in order to help it succeed? There seems to be a trend that teams spend a ton of money to get the best players and end up with financial problems. For example, last season AC St. Louis and Crystal Palace Baltimore, who were already on shaky ground, picked up a few players at the end of the year when they really could not afford the players they already had. Those two teams are no longer around. Now we find out Carolina was not much better off finanically than everyone else.
All I want to Christmas is the guarantee that there will be D2 soccer around next year–so I can be outside, drink beer and have fun. Everyone seems to be having problems and I am not sure if I will get my “wish.”
So, wait….you led the charge (or at least co-led it) to break away from USL, put in all that effort and now don’t want to be involved anymore? You wanted a league that was run by team owners, a league that you were sure was going to be the way to success, and before the new league plays its first game, you want out? Whuck?
Soccer Boy: “I almost wonder if there needs to be some sort of salary cap for D2 in order to help it succeed?”
Could be. Good luck getting it done, though. You can’t unilaterally establish a salary cap in the absence of collective bargaining without running afoul of US law, unless you’re a single entity.
There would have to be a players’ union that would agree to a salary cap in negotiations on an overall collective bargaining agreement. And there is no union for non-MLS players in this country (unlike minor league hockey players, who have the PHPA).
Wow. So Wellman, one of the kingpins of the TOA, is no longer willing to continue putting money into the Carolina team. I wonder if that is what the NASL application for D2 sanctioning stated.
It must have gone something like this….. “We have 8 teams, and all of the 8 teams have owners that meet the financial criteria, but hey, not all of them want to put their own money into the team as they believe the return for that investment is simply not there. But other than that Ms. Lincoln, NASL is ripping and raring to go, so sanction us. By the way, here is a check for USSF from Traffic and we did not give it to you ahead of the November vote so it would in any way influence your decision for sanctioning (wink wink). It is for the good of soccer.”
What a complete deviation of the standards set by USSF. That would be the concept of sustainability with committed financially secure owners.
And yes, there is a problem with a foreign entity owning the United States of America Division 2 League. It is a lot like needing the President of the United States to be born on US soil. If all Traffic does, as has been discussed above, is increase player transfers outside the US so they can make … wait for it… that dreaded word….a PROFIT….then how does this help soccer here in the United States? These players Traffic wants are not majority US soccer players.
The D2 level should be a development league for MLS and USMT. It should be no different than baseball’s AAA league. These are the not yet ready for prime time players. No shame or harm in that if developed properly, but if the emphasis is on player transfers, the real purpose for D2 has vanished.
I don’t care if this is Traffic, NASL, Wellman, or USL. The D2 league should serve a specific mandate that assists soccer overall in the US.
Just my opinion, folks, but we have to have a long term strategy here.
This could be the perfect storm, the US census just came out Nevada has the largest population growth in the U.S.
1. Expand to Las Vegas
2. Expand to San Diego
3. Expand to Phoenix
you just got there future success in these untapped markets.
@Bart – If the USSF feels that is what the foreign entity Traffic is up to then they’ll pull sanctioning faster than you can say “Brazil”. Then this house of cards will crumble. Not that it isn’t going to anyway without investors besides Traffic.
This thing is looking more like a Mickey Mouse operation than ever.
@Bart – Clearly you spend an indordinate amount of time thinking about the failings of soccer in the US. The powers that be seem to not listen, however.
Revelation time! As a prelude, you recently posted : “I am also rich and balding and very comfortable at this stage in my life.”
Solution: Buy or invest in a team.
Walk the walk instead of always preaching about what others should be doing concerning their investments in soccer.
Lobbing metaphorical grenades from the back row is too easy, counsel.
You could be Division II’s Mark Cuban of the NBA Dallas Mavericks.
Well, there are always the tax benefits . . .
When are some of you haters going to open your check books, instead of critizing others who do. It’s incredible to thin you can tell other how they should spend their money.
jspec:
It is called being a consultant. As with every consultant, they borrow your watch to tell you what time it is.
@Bart – I’m going to forego continuing the circle we keep going round with most of your comments. I’m going to focus on the last few lines here:
“The D2 level should be a development league for MLS and USMT. It should be no different than baseball’s AAA league. These are the not yet ready for prime time players. No shame or harm in that if developed properly, but if the emphasis is on player transfers, the real purpose for D2 has vanished.
I don’t care if this is Traffic, NASL, Wellman, or USL. The D2 league should serve a specific mandate that assists soccer overall in the US.
Just my opinion, folks, but we have to have a long term strategy here.”
I think most of us agree that the best potential for long term stability for D2 is as a player development league. Being a formal, competitive league, and a part of the overall soccer pyramid, should offer advantages over the MLS reserve league teams. Your comparison to minor league baseball, while thematically is relevant, doesn’t really equate ultimately.
Professional baseball in the US is the equivalent of the EPL, the Bundesliga, Serie A, and La Liga all rolled into one when it comes to the pro perspective. The kid playing with the Rancho Cucamonga Quakes isn’t dreaming of playing pro baseball in Spain. Would it be nice if the NASL became as a feeder league to MLS almost exclusively? Ok, sure. But it’s not at all realistic for too many reasons. Just because the best players developed in this country currently all look to go overseas to play is not a bad thing at this point in our country’s soccer history. Hell, the fact that the world recognizes we have value to offer in the way of players at all has been a major step forward.
You’re getting the cart WAY before the horse. The soccer powers of the world have had over a century to develop the game, their players, and their leageus. We’re infants by comparison, and that’s not even taking into account the HUGE obstacles soccer faces here in the form of LONG eastablished other pro sports leagues. Over the last 40 years we have seen growth of the sport here. Small growth, not steady or consistent, but growth none the less. You can’t expect a quantum leap forward at any point. Continued slow growth seems the best we can hope for.
MLS seems to have more stablility then it ever has by and large. I really think Portland, Vancouver, and Montreal will thrive and make the league even more successful. The USSF was right to make standards that would allow for sustainability at the D2 level. The time is now to try and get things figured out on this level, or to see if it is even possible. A long term strategy is obviously important. But you have to start somewhere.
Let me make an analogy. Let’s see you have come up with an idea for a great product, but your resources are limited. What do you do? Throw your hands up in the air and forget it? Or do you try and get your idea off the ground as best you can and then look for investors to back you and really make it take off and head toward your long term vision for the concept? So Traffic is supporting the beginning stage of the NASL, so what? So they are in the business of selling players. Your view on this fact is arse-backward. Traffic NEEDS a respectable league to showcase players in. They want NASL to succeed just as much as we fans do.
I’m no NASL insider, but their plan appears pretty simple to me. Take these 8 teams, put their money into some real marketing for their product (a must!), and try and build the fanbase for each of their markets. IF they can do this, THEN hopefully investing in the Stars, Silverbacks, or Railhawks becomes viable for either the current owners or potential new ones. Same thing goes for possible expansion, or rebirth of the AC St. Louis and FC Baltmiore’s of the world. It’s not anything complicated.
@Bart – Your minor league baseball comparison, while thematically applicable, does not ultimately equate with soccer. The kid playing at Rancho Cucmonga is not dreaming of playing in Spain or Italy. MLB rules the baseball world, hands down. It’s the equivalent of the EPL, Bundesliga, Serie A, and La Liga rolled into one. Young players are dreaming of playing in those leagues, even the kids here in the US.
As to your final point of a long term strategy, let’s go with a business analogy. Let’s say you come up with a product you think is great. We’ll call it Bart’s gizmos. Your number one problem with developing the gizmos is capital though. So you use every penny you’re got to get the prototype up and running as best as you can, and you go around the business community try to sell your idea to investors, hoping to get some backing to take your dream gizmo where you really want to go. You follow? Traffic needs to survive short term, really focus on the key factor which is marketing their product, and hope to make it more attractive to potential investors by building fanbases and providing an entertaining product on the field.
It’s a pretty simple plan really. With the MLS on the most stable ground of its existence, it was the right time for the USSF to turn it’s attention to the lower divisions, and they started by creating the D2 standards which lay out a plan for long term sustainability in their minds. Will the NASL survive those standards? Who knows, time will tell. But I for one am glad to see the NASL giving it their best shot to circle the wagons, put down stakes, and try and build outward.
I have to stop now, there are just too many points to make regarding your posts that I’d be here all day doing it.
“This is really a shame. If we don’t get more people at division two games (damn Southerns and their thinking about soccer)…”
-Salim
Yeah, Bro.
Putting down people–I don’t think that it is a good marketing tool. maybe not the best way to “appeal to the masses”.
So a lot of Southerners don’t like soccer enough to go pay for it. Damn them. They SHOULD like soccer and buy the product. A lot of Southerners don’t like minor league football enough to go pay for it but they will go to college and high school football games and support them enthusiastically. Damn them.
Richmond, Charleston, Charlotte–some Southern cities where minor league soccer has survived for several years.
Maybe as fans, some uf us need to understand that not everyone else is interested in what we are willing to buy and it doesn’t make any less smart (aka “dumber”) than we are.
“3. Expand to Phoenix
you just got there future success in these untapped markets.”
-WSW
I like your idea about tapping markets (even thought those markets have been discussed before many times over)
1) The Arizona political/economic climate doesn’t currently lend itself to starting a por soccer franchise there.
2) The Pheonix and Las Vegas WEATHER don’t lend itself to founding a pro soccer club there. Summer in Phoenix or Vegas. The Diamondbacks have a retractable roof over their stadium. Just too hot…
@Bart – “It is called being a consultant. As with every consultant, they borrow your watch to tell you what time it is.”…….and then when you ask them what time it is they tell you how the watch works….
Back to your original comment, if NASL/USL/USSF/MLS has requested you to comment or hired you to analyze their operation then you can IMO officially call yourelf a “consultant”. If not, then IMO you are just a “critic”.
Wow, heh. When I submitted my first post, it didn’t seem to go through. Frustrated, I shortened it up a bit, and now I come back later abd they’re both there. LOL
The South has had many long-term teams; Richmond, Charlotte, Charleston, Wilmington (minus their break last year) Even the Carolina Dynamo (PDL) outdrew a couple Railhawk matches last year. Marketing is a tricky situation, and one that cant be ignored. Most owners relize they are going to lose money the first few years (or longer) but if they would crank up the Marketing initally in that “accepted loss” catagory I think they would see a return on their losses sooner. Peter Wilt’s 10 marketing stratagies is a must read for these owners and I wish I could find the link.
The thing that concerns me personally about the article is the bit at the end about Wellman “reviving” the Southern Derby with Charleston and Atlanta.
The Southern Derby is a fan driven cup and has been for 11 years. It was created to encourage rivalries and travel between fans and clubs.
Wellman is being a bit presumptuous to say he is reviving it when he hasnt been in contact with the supporters about it and risk further alienating the Railhawk supporters with every quote in the paper. The fact that the Cup doesnt need to be “revived” as it continued last year in USL2 shows his ignorance. I contacted Andrew Bell, Battery President, about the issues and he said he fully supports it being a fan-based cup and would never try to “take” it away from that and supports the fans 100% in the decisions concerning the cup. To me it sounds like Wellman doesnt know what the hell he was talking about in regards to his version of the cup.
Prehaps I’m taking it a bit too personal but I and alot of others have spent alot of time, money and effort over the years for Wellman to come in and act like a savior. Let him start his own Cup and he can call it what ever he wants but the Southern Derby belongs to the fans.
I’m in support of you on Southern Derby. These derby trophies should be fan driven just as the Rocky Mountain Cup and the MLS Supporters Shield. These events should be fan driven and supported. It’s great when the FO’s want to support the supporters in helping make the events a success, but they should not be the driving force behind them. It’s an organic thing.
Bart- you confuse me. I thought the President was born in Kenya.
@Bart – I’m going to forego continuing the circle we keep going round with most of your comments. I’m going to focus on the last few lines here: “The D2 level should be a development league for MLS and USMT. It should be no different than baseball’s AAA league. These are the not yet ready for prime time players. No shame or harm in that if developed properly, but if the emphasis is on player transfers, the real purpose for D2 has vanished. I don’t care if this is Traffic, NASL, Wellman, or USL. The D2 league should serve a specific mandate that assists soccer overall in the US. Just my opinion, folks, but we have to have a long term strategy here.” I think most of us agree that the best potential for long term stability for D2 is as a player development league. Being a formal, competitive league, and a part of the overall soccer pyramid, should offer advantages over the MLS reserve league teams. Your comparison to minor league baseball, while thematically is relevant, doesn’t really equate ultimately. Professional baseball in the US is the equivalent of the EPL, the Bundesliga, Serie A, and La Liga all rolled into one when it comes to the pro perspective. The kid playing with the Rancho Cucamonga Quakes isn’t dreaming of playing pro baseball in Spain. Would it be nice if the NASL became as a feeder league to MLS almost exclusively? Ok, sure. But it’s not at all realistic for too many reasons. Just because the best players developed in this country currently all look to go overseas to play is not a bad thing at this point in our country’s soccer history. Hell, the fact that the world recognizes we have value to offer in the way of players at all has been a major step forward. You’re getting the cart WAY before the horse. The soccer powers of the world have had over a century to develop the game, their players, and their leageus. We’re infants by comparison, and that’s not even taking into account the HUGE obstacles soccer faces here in the form of LONG eastablished other pro sports leagues. Over the last 40 years we have seen growth of the sport here. Small growth, not steady or consistent, but growth none the less. You can’t expect a quantum leap forward at any point. Continued slow growth seems the best we can hope for. MLS seems to have more stablility then it ever has by and large. I really think Portland, Vancouver, and Montreal will thrive and make the league even more successful. The USSF was right to make standards that would allow for sustainability at the D2 level. The time is now to try and get things figured out on this level, or to see if it is even possible. A long term strategy is obviously important. But you have to start somewhere. Let me make an analogy. Let’s see you have come up with an idea for a great product, but your resources are limited. What do you do? Throw your hands up in the air and forget it? Or do you try and get your idea off the ground as best you can and then look for investors to back you and really make it take off and head toward your long term vision for the concept? So Traffic is supporting the beginning stage of the NASL, so what? So they are in the business of selling players. Your view on this fact is arse-backward. Traffic NEEDS a respectable league to showcase players in. They want NASL to succeed just as much as we fans do. I’m no NASL insider, but their plan appears pretty simple to me. Take these 8 teams, put their money into some real marketing for their product (a must!), and try and build the fanbase for each of their markets. IF they can do this, THEN hopefully investing in the Stars, Silverbacks, or Railhawks becomes viable for either the current owners or potential new ones. Same thing goes for possible expansion, or rebirth of the AC St. Louis and FC Baltmiore’s of the world. It’s not anything complicated.