Major League Soccer to Minnesota? Probably, and Here’s Why
There is lots of renewed discussion about the MLS coming to Minnesota through the Wilfs, owners of the Vikings. Ever since they started to lobby for a new stadium for their Minnesota Vikings, they have mentioned wanting to purchase the rights to an MLS franchise and field a team. Inability to come to terms on a variety of details, coupled with a negative political climate scotched the previous deal with Anoka County in 2009 to build the new Vikings stadium there. What makes this situation different?
A variety of factors do, some already mentioned in previous comment at IMS. However, a few very important factors have not been mentioned.
First, let’s go through the reasons that the Wilfs would want an MLS franchise.
The most obvious is that they would have a guaranteed 20 or more dates booked for their venue over the spring, summer and early fall, when the stadium is not being used by the Vikings. The lion’s share of the revenues generated by those dates would go to the Wilfs. It opens the door for additional soccer dates such as World Cup Qualifiers and exhibition tours from major European clubs. It’s even very possible that a relatively new, state of the art stadium with climate control would make a very attractive venue to the organizers of the USA’s bid for the 2026 World Cup. Most of the stadiums currently in use by MLS can’t say that.
The MLS connection will also help out in smaller ways, such as spurring greater interest in on-site retail space for soccer shops, other retail stores and sports bars and restaurants (who will prefer having magnet events scheduled all year ‘round).
The location is reasonably close to the urban centers of the Twin Cities market, making it easier for fans to get there, with road and transit improvements; more on that as we go.
And they’ll get a great deal on the cost of the land. (Once again, later).
Many people are skeptical of the Wilfs’ desire to have an MLS franchise. Let me respond to some of the more common naysayers.
“You can’t trust the Wilfs.” Well, mebbe yes, mebbe no. I don’t know of anything they have done that’s any more slippery than any other real-estate developer or sports owner. I know of lots of both who have done much worse. “Always keep an eye on suits moving money” is one of my most basic beliefs. But there are just too many good business reasons for them to do it and so few not to (as I will immediately elaborate on.)
“It’s just a ploy for them to get the stadium through increased soccer people support.” Sport fandom in this country is seldom a deciding factor at the ballot box. People who oppose public money for stadiums oppose it for most all stadiums. People who are in favor of it usually support it regardless of the sport. If someone can show me where the proponents of either the Twins Target Field or the U of M’s TCF Stadium were voted out of office mainly on those issues, site the sources. Either way, I don’t know of any election in this country turning on the “soccer vote.” I also suspect that the “soccer lobby” in this state is a minor one, if it exists at all. And if anyone can name to me an elected official in this state who is in the pocket of “Big Soccer,” tell me who they are so I can write and thank them.
“They won’t want to pay the $40 million franchise fee.” While the Wilfs are rather secretive about their personal worth and the value of their businesses, some have conservatively estimated Zygi’s personal net worth to be at the $1.3 billion mark. The Wilfs have already spent $625 million to purchase the Vikings and are expected to contribute approximately $400 million to building the stadium. They have obviously shown that coming up with large sums of money is easily within their grasp. In addition, they have been vetted by the financial watchdogs of the NFL, the most business savvy league in the world. $40 million borders on chump change for them.
“If they get an MLS franchise, they won’t spend enough to make it competitive.” Well, they’ve spent money on the Vikings, so far. I realize that that is, at least in part, to make the team more attractive to convince people that they don’t want them to leave. But the other factor is within the Wilfs, themselves.
As anyone involved with the financial world will tell you, there are LOTS and LOTS of ways to invest your money and turn a bigger profit than investing in a major league franchise, including even the NFL, the most profitable sports league in the world. Nobody currently owning a major league sports franchise made most of their money from pro sports, unless they inherited the team from their family. The vast majority of major league sports owners got rich in other businesses and decided to buy a sports franchise. For most of them, it is a way to compete in a less serious arena then the business fields they became rich at – a chance to be “the ultimate fan.”
The Wilfs made their money in the world of New York and East Coast real-estate development, one of the most competitive, cut-throat business sectors there is. Short of losing SIGNIFICANT amounts of money in the attempt, I can see no reason that they would not spend the money to keep a Minnesota MLS franchise competitive, especially with the revenue-sharing structure MLS has. If they spent all this money to get into the sports business, they probably want to win at it as well.
So, let’s move on to MLS interests. Why would they want a Minnesota franchise, especially one owned by the Wilfs?
The Twin Cities soccer market has shown over the past 35 years that they will turn out for any major soccer event. The Minnesota Kicks were regularly near the top in per game attendance while in the NASL, averaging over 30,000 for two years, and always in the top half. The Minnesota Strikers, in their one year of outdoor soccer, was second in the NASL in attendance. The Minnesota Thunder, a D-2 team, had three games with attendance of over 10,000 and seven games with attendance of over 9,000. including three D-2 league regular season matches, two friendlies with MLS teams, the A-League Championship match in 1999 and the Copa Minnesota match against the Beckham-led L.A. Galaxy, which drew over 20,000 in 2007. There is nothing that says that Minnesota won’t support an MLS franchise.
They have all the amenities necessary to support any event the MLS chooses to hold here. Hotels, restaurants, media outlets, convention centers, etc. It has a history of hosting major national sporting events. The Twin Cities metropolitan area is a thriving, growing, relatively economically stable (in comparison with any other major metropolitan area) place to market an increasingly more popular sport.
It is the 15th largest Nielsen TV market in the country, a major factor in the setting the value of network TV contracts. According to the way the US census determines metropolitan areas, the Twin Cities area is the 13th most populated metro market in the country with over 3 million people. That’s a lot of people to market MLS merchandise to, as well as potential consumers for the companies who sponsor and advertise with MLS.
Ever since the beginning of the MLS, the various commissioners and officers have been quoted as saying that they thought the Twin Cities would be an excellent place to have an MLS franchise. The two factors that have prevented it is no deep-pocket owner and no suitable stadium. If the Wilfs get their stadium, no barriers left.
For those who say that the MLS is looking only for smaller, soccer-specific stadiums, their “exception” for and the results from Seattle belie all that. “Fan atmosphere in cozy stadiums” was a code phrase for “Shiny new stadiums (usually good for a three year attendance bump) small enough that we won’t have to ask local governments for very much money to erect them while not having to spend too much of our own money to build them and where we can get most of the revenue generated instead of having to rent someone else’s stadium, with their attendant demand for a share of the take and annoying scheduling hassles.” “Fan atmosphere” was an afterthought for them.
The statements about keeping the league down to 20 teams should also be taken with a grain of salt. The MLS has a record of changing its mind about its rules whenever opportunity strikes. They revamped their entire team roster and salary cap rules for the league when Beckham decided to get semi-serious with MLS. The MLS started out with an agreement with the USL to have arrangements assigning certain 2nd division clubs to certain MLS clubs. MLS, after a couple of years, ended that agreement and eventually set up their own reserve teams, which they ended after a couple of years and now they’re planning to start their own reserve teams again. These are not totally inflexible people. If they decide that they can save or make money by altering their plans, they’ll do so. Present them with the Wilfs, and three other BIG-money owners who control their own stadiums in top 30 markets and the MLS will find room for them at a rate of one a year for a 24 team league by 2016.
My best guesstimate (barring a pro/rel system; not likely, but not impossible) is a top out at 28 total franchises in the league over the next 25 years or so. Have the money, stadium and market, and they will come.
And as for those who think there are a lot of markets ahead of Minnesota, I think not. While a new New York Cosmos (especially if they are any good) would be the biggest publicity generator for MLS since Beckham, the record for soccer in the south isn’t all that great. Besides being a conservative area generally (and to paint with a broad brush, soccer is not the sports passion of conservatives), when the old NASL teams started moving or dying, they did so, with a couple of exceptions, from the Southeast up. And remember, the only two MLS teams ever to be shut down were Miami and Tampa Bay in 2001. There is little evidence that the Southeast is more deserving than the North is. (Sidenote: I am not saying that a new franchise can’t succeed there. I am just saying that there is no evidence that a team there would do any better than one in Minnesota.)
And finally, there’s the Wilfs themselves. Big money men, repeatedly vetted, who share personal business experiences with many of the MLS owners through their common investment in the NFL.
So, that leaves the politicians. In the current popular political mood of the country and this state, where many people on both sides of the political spectrum rail against using government money to fund stadiums for billionaire sports owners and millionaire players, what are the motivations to try to make this deal work?
There are the usual arguments, that the construction of the development itself will create some jobs for the architectural firms, construction companies, and down the road a couple of handfuls of jobs for the stadium employees and the retailers and restaurateurs who open up businesses there, plus a sprinkling of trickle-down positions elsewhere as more people are drawn to the area.
And for people who object to the cost of altering the roadways for it, it can realistically be argued that the area is already in need of modernization and expansion as traffic has increased substantially in that area due to a population increase in the northern part of the metro area. Traffic delays are regular occurrences on the highways in the area as it is. The costs of altering roadways for the stadium can be partially worked into the money that will need to be spent within ten years anyway.
By the way, speaking of increased traffic, for those who worry that there is not enough mass transit to this area, it will come. First, Bloomington built Metropolitan Stadium and the old Met Center. Then the Twins, Vikings and North Stars moved in. THEN the demand grew for the mass transit needed and many routes were added to the area. I think the adjustment will be much quicker this time, considering that the MTC and related transit companies have a track record to look at for major league sports teams and how they affect demand.
So, a lot of the usual stuff, you say. But what’s the big difference this time? How can you sell this one to politicians and the public where the other ones have met with constant resistance.
Two words. Superfund site.
No, that’s not a tax-free, lure-businesses-into-the-area scheme. Quite the opposite.
In 1941, the U.S. Army began to build a government-owned, contractor-operated, small arms munitions factory and testing range on this very site. From 1942 to V-J Day in 1945, the plant manufactured .30, .50 and .45 caliber ammunition and reclaimed excess ammunition sent back for salvage. From ’46 to’50, the manufacturing plant was mothballed and reclamation only was done until 1950, when the plant was brought back online for the Korean war. It continued to manufacture until 1957, when it was mothballed again, this time until 1965, when new types of ammo were made there for the Vietnam War. In 1976 it was put on stand-by status until 2002, when the land was declared to be “in excess” by the Army. But during those years of ammunition manufacturing, reclaiming and testing, tons and tons of contaminants were dumped or leaked or implanted into the soil. In short, it’s an environmental disaster area. So the government put the site on the Superfund list to insure that this site, and sites like it, were cleaned up, as much as possible, by the entities that created them.
Since the site was put on the Superfund list, a lot of clean-up has been going on. However, concerns remain. To finish the clean-up to the point where it would be suitable for residential development would be prohibitive. Another remaining problem is that every time water from rain or snow drains through the soil there, a certain amount of those chemicals are washed into the aquifer and from there, find their way into the area’s ground and well water. With all the open land you’ll find in residential areas; yards, parks, school grounds, etc., turning the Arden Hills site into residential developments would be very problematic.
I checked with my partner, Joan on this. She majored in architecture in college and has been working for HUD and the US Department of Agriculture, Forestry Service, overseeing construction plans for residences, office buildings, National Forest buildings, roads, bridges and other projects. In her opinion (and this is a very simplified version of it), the best type of development for this kind of Superfund area would be one where you would bring in new soil to level the area you want to build on. You would then basically cover the entire area with a thick layer of concrete, cover that concrete with another level of topsoil and then build your development. Again, because of the complexities, environmental concerns, and difficulty marketing housing built over a Superfund site, residential development would be out of the question. Simple retail development like a shopping mall might work, but malls without a magnet store or that are not a part of a massive shopping district (for Twin Cities residents think Woodbury along the south side of I-94 or Maple Grove on the north side of I-694) are struggling to survive as it is. And there is not enough available area there to create that kind of massive shopping district. There is no demand for additional manufacturing space either. There are plenty of empty factories and smaller buildings already zoned for that purpose. The demand for this otherwise prime piece of land has been practically non-existent.
The best solution? A stadium/retail complex. By concreting over the remainder of the contaminated soil, you keep the rain and snow melt-off from washing remaining chemicals into the aquifer. Whatever amount of rain water or snowmelt remains will either simply evaporate or drain off the mostly paved development and parking lots or, in the relatively few green spaces, will be filtered by the clean top layer of topsoil over the layer of concrete covering the contaminated dirt below.
The stadium is the magnet for the retail development, the land starts generating tax dollars, stimulates the economy a little with jobs, and protects the environment and drinking water of surrounding communities. You’d have to be a pretty poor politician not to be able to sell that package.
Also, when the Twins asked, they ultimately got. When the U of M Athletic Department asked, they ultimately got. And I would argue that the Vikings are more popular with Minnesota’s general public than either of those entities.
So, as far as I can see, this is the best shot for the Twin Cities area to see an MLS franchise based here in the near future. If this falls through, I suspect the Wilfs will move the Vikings. Again, the Wilfs are competitive. And no matter how well the team performs on the field, continuing to be 31st out of 32 NFL teams in revenue will not sit well with them. And if any other billionaires are interested in bringing the MLS to Minnesota and building a new stadium, 20,000 or 60,000 sized, they certainly haven’t reared their heads yet.
Comments are closed.
This is one helluva article, well thought out and pretty dadgum exciting for MN!
I do have one question, if the Wilf’s interests are primarily east coast and New York, why MN for them? Is this a family area for them?
Very nice work, Scott.
You did an excellent job providing a bit of background for us who don’t live in the area.
It will be really interesting to see how this all plays out.
Bravo!
Fantastic article Brian. One other reason MLS might be interested in Minnesota is that they have demonstrated their desire to create regional rivalries (Portland-Seattle-Vancouver, DC-NE-NY, etc.) Adding Minnesota would create a Midwest rivalry with Chicago and KC (to the extent that you can create a rivalry).
BOOM!
This is perfect.
Scott needs to be our staff writer on mls4mn.com
Fans of soccer in Minnesota need to get excited about this. Don’t be afraid to lose your shirt over this. This our time to build the momentum and support for pro soccer in Minnesota! Get your friends out to the Stars.
It isn’t a for sure thing, but it is the closest we have ever come to getting MLS.
Excellent article Scott! Some great, in-depth work but watch out! You might become a 3M expert witness!
I have a number of questions regarding the Superfund site and it’s current progress, such as if the feasibility study has already been completed, but I think those are better questions addressed somewhere other than the IMS board.
…I’m back, was caught day dreaming about MLS in MN! How fun would it be for the MN Norseman to sign Forlan as their DP…
If there is something the Wilfs have shown with their Vikings experiences it’s that they are not afraid to make the bold (and expensive) moves such as with Jared Allen, Randy Moss, etc. They do do what they think is right to improve the team. I for one believe the same would happen if they were to own an MLS team. Like everything else, better product, better sales. Were it to happen I suspect they would be sure to field a quality team and likely draw some of those “special occasion” matches you mention for additional revenue.
Bart does raise a good question concerning NY/MN but a BIG plus in MN’s favor here is the low price of the real estate and the likelyhood of getting more for much less and retaining many more options for potential revenue sources. Choosing between the two, I suspect there is just as much ROI (all factors considered) in MN if not more than in NY.
Great way to start the day, so I thank you Scott!
If relegation is not going to take place,MLS would be best to expand to at least 32 teams. Of course, Minnesota should be one of those.
What is the planned capacity for this stadium?
MLS in MN!
https://www.facebook.com/pages/Major-League-Soccer-in-Minnesota/153099468091046?sk=wall
I’m not sure they know all the details yet. Initial stages and far from a done deal.
Thanks Wes. I will get a link on the site once I get a chance to catch my breath.
We don’t know if the Arden Hills site is 100% at this time, right?
This could be just a ploy to get a more favorable site in Minneapolis. Afterall, if the state/city says they would build in downtown Mpls only I am willing to bet Zygi would accept those terms, this is why we need to be on point with MLS 4 MN!
We don’t want it 100% contingent on the Arden Hills stadium.
We want it to be 100% contingent on if a stadium is built, anywhere.
Anything that helps prevent Orlando or Miami getting an MLS franchise, I support. Good luck to yall
Fantastic article. Thank you for helping to change my mind about the possibility of an MLS team in MN. I WANT one, but until I read this, I didn’t really feel like there was a realistic chance for us to HAVE one.
I think I read somewhere that Garber wants somewhere around 80 million for the twentieth franchise. Not only that but do we really want another team playing in an NFL stadium? Turf isn’t conductive to good soccer. You need only to watch Seattle at home to see how awful it gets with time.
for all MNtans getting excited about MLS in Minn i have a few words of warning for you. if you put your MLS fate in the hands of an NFL owner looking to wheedle a sweet stadium deal out of local government you do so at your own risk. i have two words for you Robert Kraft.
that is the example here. an NFL owner who wanted a few extra events at his shiny new NFL stadium. you guys and Atlanta always want to ignore Kraft and focus on Seattle. neither of your cities is Seattle. neither of your cities has the soccer history, the soccer fervor of Seattle. and neither of your ownership groups would be like Seattle. Seattle took the origninal ownership of the D2 Sounders AND ADDED other investors one of which happened to be the NFL/Qwest stadium guy. the key here is that the D2 Sounders ownership forms the HEART of the MLS ownership so that there is no question about their loyalties to MLS first, or their soccer passion or their soccer competence.
you wanna know what you get when your sole ownership is an NFL owner and your stadium is geared mostly towards an NFL team? that’s right boys and girls you get the NE Revolution. and it makes sense because no matter how successful an MLS team might be it pales in comparison to the money making machine that is NFL. and in a battle within an NFL ownership group for resources, time, staff, interest, passion, caring between their flagship NFL team and their add-on MLS team guess who is going to win every single time.
fans in Atlanta and Minnesota who are desperate for an MLS team and want to throw their lot in with these NFL owners who are looking for nothing more than support to get their Socialism for the Rich Stadiums and then an extra 20 events a year to fill said Corporate Charity Stadium i’d ask a few Revolution fans how that is working out for them first.
Stark, I also seem to remember The Don chatting during halftime of an earlier MLS match stating the next franchise would costs “a heck of a lot more than $40M.” With that said, Scott’s article paints a favorable picture of Wilf’s wealth.
Sorry, Giggsy, you’re a bit off there. To say that Minnesota doesn’t have the soccer history that Seattle has is crazy talk. One of the other experts can verify this with “facts,” but I believe we have maintained a continual presence of professional soccer longer than any other US city.
Also, Arden Hills is NOT an hour away from DT Minneapolis the way Gillette Stadium is.
You’re missing the point, though. Few of us beating the MLS drum think Wilf is excited to do this. However, we’re taking the buzz that his mentions has created and trying to raise the awareness that MLS absolutely can succeed in MPLS. Will there be a crap-load of logistics? Sure. But I want me some MLS in MN and by God I will raise some hell even if I get let down.
Personally, I would gladly take the New England Revolution. They’ve been in MLS Cup four times so I can’t say they haven’t had on field success. Now, I would love a downtown MLS soccer specific stadium but I wouldn’t turn down a MLS team if I had the chance. Do you think Phoenix, Las Vegas, San Diego, Miami, Atlanta, St. Louis or Detroit would turn down a team if the requirement was that they played in a brand new retractable roof NFL stadium? I doubt it. And with a retractable roof, who says it’s going to be fake turf on the field?
Sounder games at Qwest are a great experience- mostly due to the fans. However, truth be told the site lines SUCK. When the play is on or near the touchlines you can only see players heads. The sideline stands need to be moved back 5-10 yards. Even from the raised perspective of the TV camera you cannot see the ball. I am most certain that if you NFL owner builds a stadium you’ll have the same issue.
Minnesota has about the same history supporting professional soccer as Seattle.
Plus, MINNESOTA IS THE NUMBER ONE HIPSTER STATE
Do I even need to mention how our state was named the gayest in the nation? We all know how many times we have been called gay for liking soccer.
*that is sarcasm.
@Seamonster: NER was a decent team in MLS 1.0. now that MLS has changed and to succeed you must have great scouting, great youth development, and be willing to spend money (not necessarily Becks/Henry money) on solid DPs they have fallen off the table. both on and off the pitch. they are languishing and their NFL owner couldn’t care less because it is only a filler event for his otherwise important NFL team and stadium.
@MinnNiceFC: don’t get me wrong. i think St Paul/Minn is an intriguing soccer market. it has many of the same demographics that other very successful MLS markets do. it has a large number of 20-40 year olds, it is fairly wealthy and has a low poverty rate, it is also has a very educated population. those are all demographic positives. the drawbacks are that their population to pro team ratio isn’t so great … a team in all 4 sports and a decent but not overly large overall population. and i wasn’t trying to say that their wasn’t a soccer history in Minn just that it isn’t anywhere close to what is going on in Cascadia. having a team and having fervent support for soccer at any level (like Portland) are not the same thing. What is NSC’s attendance again?
a Minn MLS team will be lucky to be in the 16-18K average attendance range sort of like Philly (nothing to sneeze at). how are 18K fans going to look in an NFL stadium? terrible. how is the atmosphere going to be with 18K fans rattling around in an 2/3rds or more empty NFL stadium. terrible. just ask Metrostars fans or Revolution fans. having an Minn MLS team in a new NFL stadium is going to be a shite experience especially if that is compounded by plastic turf. people need to temper their desire and excitement about possible MLS with a realistic and critical eye of exactly what that would entail. sometimes not doing something is better than doing it crappily.
Perhaps the Wilfs could just hang giant garbage bags over the upper decks. I think the Metropolitan Sports Commision has one in storage somewhere from the Metrodome!
Excellent article, Scott. You have certainly provided a realistic argument for MLS in the twin cities.
Top notch post, Scott. Cheers.
To Mr Kerssen, it would not be a bad idea for you to pay attention to the proceedings at the Legislature as session winds down and as we likely head into a special session. It would be tremendously advantageous to have you, or someone who is as articulate to be present to testify in favor of a proposal that would include language in reference to an MLS team.
Ok this has me daydreaming, no offense to Shorn but Zfyi’s first hire for the MLS tteam should be a guy by the name of Peter Wilt.
That should br no offense to Djorn. Stupid phone auto correct.
Yargh! I’m going back to work.
@Giggsy
Right on my friend, right on! I applaud the passion and excitement of everyone posting but whats happening in N.E. is the most probably outcome of a MLS club owned by an NFL owner in a large NFL stadium. I too want an MLS team in MPLS, but I want to do it right. I want to do it with an ownership group that has the same passion/interest in soccer as everbody posting here does. I want the atmosphere to be the calling card for soccer in the Twin Cities (see: Portland). I want grass and no grid lines. And I’m willing to wait for it. In our rush to get MLS in MPLS we run the risk of being over eager and getting what we want in the short term but loosing out on what will sustain an MLS club in MPLS in the long run.
Beware of NFL owners bearing gifts.
Having said all that (and consequently putting a wet towel on the excitement), I think Scott’s article was first rate. Good
analysis; you brought up one or two points (superfund site) that I hadn’t thought of. Maybe it will work. Let’s just hope that Zigy isn’t leading us on. Right now our best friend, believe it or not, is Don Garber. Say what you will about him, but he cares about MLS and cares about doing soccer right. And after seeing Portland’s debut, the bar is now much higher and Garber will hold any new owners to that standard (as it should be).
FWIW- The field at JELD-WEN is turf.
In the fall Portland State University will be playing football on it.
So, we should probably quit talking about how Portland has a perfect situation, in terms of playing field, that being said, the urban stadium is ideal.
If Arden Hills doesn’t work out the team could go back to Minneapolis…which is why need to keep up the pressure to keep MLS in the conversation!
Excellent article. I would love to get an MLS team in Minnesota! A few things weighing against MN would be 1) MLS greatly prefers smaller, more intimate facilities…see Gigsy above 2) If the Vikings stay, the market would be saturated with pro sports. I think MN would be more likely to get a franchise if the Vikings left and a soccer specific facility was built near one of the down towns 3) Milwaukee will likely be the next Midwest market for MLS, while they have been more stealth in their pursuit, soccer is much bigger in Milwaukee. They also have many more and larger 2nd and 3rd generation ethnic communities. 4) I’m not sure the Wilfs can be trusted. We have not heard a lot of MLS banter from them, except when it is crunch time for stadium bills 5) Not sure the Wilfs pockets are as deep as you might think. The NFL is likely to put up 50-65% of “their” share for the stadium. 6) I don’t believe a stadium deal will be finalized this session.
I hope I am 100% wrong, and would love to see MLS and the occasional nation team friendly, world cup qualifier, euro team tour, Gold Cup, etc. game right here in Minnesota.
Optimistic article but I don’t think that MLS wants New England Revolution 2.0 to be in the league.
@smatthew I have the same thought about Peter Wilt. And no disrespect to Djorn. There will be plenty to do for both of them.
I’m sorry, but as much as I would like to, I just don’t see this.
They don’t want to play in NFL stadiums. The exceptions to the rule are either “grandfathered” in (like NE), or cities where professional soccer has a better track record.
I enjoyed the Kicks as much as anyone, but 1970s attendance records aren’t going to impress MLS officials today. Seattle, Portland and now Montreal had good, solid second division teams with a strong attendance base. The precarious nature of the current Minnesota franchise is not going to inspire confidence at MLS.
I hope I’m wrong, but this just feels to me more like a dream that we wish were true.
@thesuperrookie
Yeah, I noticed that Portland plays on turf just a week or two ago…That’s pretty good turf though. Much better than Seattle (its brand new of course).
I didn’t know that football will be played on it. Not really that surprising though as it helps pay the bills.
When I use Portland as an example I’m speaking of the whole package…venue, venue location, playing surface, ownership, atmosphere, not just playing surface. I’ve resigned myself to the fact that any new Vikings stadium will be some type of FieldTurf. It’s too bad too because, as we’ve seen at Target Field, the technology is there for grass. One thing that my change Zigy’s mind (assuming he’s serious about this) is that FIFA sanctioned matches must be played on grass. Money talks.
I agree, we do want to make it know that soccer is wanted in MPLS regardless of were it’s played.
If they could get Beckham on the ownership group that would lower the franchise fee and make it even more do able.
To anyone who would like to use Seattle, Portland, or any other city’s previous USL attendance: STOP.
In 2005: Seattle’s USL attendance: 2885; Toronto’s: 2468
Those numbers were about the same in 2004.
To anyone who would like to talk about turf: STOP. Many other teams play on turf, MLs will hardly make a decision based on that.
To anyone who in fact thinks the decision will be based on anything other than money, get real. MLS will give a team to an ownership group that looks A) committed and B) stable. That is the only reason that MLS4MN is excited about this: we have a chance to get a rich dude like Wilf to take MLS seriously.
Now, can we stop rehashing the same nay-saying arguments?
@ Matt Reinhart what would one need to do this correctly?
I have some time and work as a salesmen and have talked in front of large groups. I also am a USSF licensed youth soccer coach here in MN.
How can I contact you? Maybe through bq and his site here.
Demko is over at the capital all the time covering stories isn’t he? He could be the guy keeping an eye on what’s going there and would know the correct time to show up in full DC force and voice.
Now is the time to rally for more. More is better!
Fugue,
Portland has a ridiculously narrow field. Possibly the most narrow in MLS. It’s only 110 x 70 and when watching games you can see it plays narrow. However, there are narrower and shorter like BMO field which is 69 yards by 105 yards.
@jw7 The process is relatively simple. For starters, head to the following web site and search for Senate File 1164 authored by Senator Rosen. You can track its status easily there.
http://www.senate.leg.state.mn.us/
There may be other proposals in the future that would have to be sponsored and introduced by legislators. But it seems a good idea to show some support early on in the process.
As far as testimony is concerned, all you have to do is get in touch with the Committee Administrator of the committee that the bill goes through (chances are it will have to be heard in several committees). I assume that the line of individuals that will want to testify will be incredibly long but usually legislators make a sincere attempt to let all voices be heard.
If you want to get in touch with me, send me an email at rein0555@metnet.edu (that’s a zero, not an oh).
.
“BMO Field of play dimensions are 75 yards wide x 115 yards long
or 68 m wide x 105 m wide.”
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http://www.torontofc.tv/toronto_fc_news_article_1.php
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Brian,
From the 3D view of the stadium and from pictures of it before renovation it looked narrow.
I prefer wider/longer fields since that, IMHO, tends to force play wide to the touchlines and gets rid of the main aesthetically unpleasing aspect of MLS play: contact by proximity in the midfield. I think HDC is the only truly big field and play is much more fun to watch. Maybe RB Arena is that size as well.
Anyhoo, to reiterate: I only use Portland as an example of a team where the whole package (venue, location, ownership, supporters groups) makes for a great overall experience; even if the game is a loss. I agree it’s too soon to tell if this is just first year excitement or the shape of things to come. Maybe Seattle is the better example. We are close in population, demographics, etc. The only difference is that Qwest Field is smack-dab in the middle of urban Seattle whereas the proposed Vikings stadium will be 15 minutes out. Not a huge issue. We are a car society for the foreseeable future. It is what it is.
I would prefer the Metrodome location but, look, beggars can’t be choosers. If Zygi is serious and, more importantly, if MLS is taking Zygi serious then I say “Rock On!”
Fugue is one of us now!
Welcome aboard the crazy train!
This stadium agreement and site location is not a 100% certainty yet.
Wow, the Wilfs show little MLS nip-slip for attention and the desperate soccer fans are oogling, fawning and generally in a tizzy over the scenario.
This is about a stadium (in Arden Hills? Really Scott, you’re so horny for this that you’re jumping on whatever site is popping up?) being built by billionaires who want us to pay for it with increased taxes while we are pulling funding from schools, medicine, infrastructure in our community.
Wilf knew this was going to be a struggle for support. So now he’s suckered a large portion of the soccer-crowd in the state. Some are even talking about going to the capitol to “raise awareness”. You guys are funny.
Everyone “loves” your article Scott. I’d be interested in a piece that is less speculative, less biased, a little bit more provocative in relation to OUR public funds being used for corporate welfare and some investigation as to what Zygi’s motives are regarding his MLS interests.
Don’t get so hot for an MLS team that you’ve basically dismiss many valid arguments/concerns with,”Zygi said ‘MLS team’! No questions, Let’s go!” Oh wait, I forgot, you asked your one friend who majored in agriculture about the superfund site…. BAM! you’re ready to go I guess. And while we’re on the topic, I know a few folks who might disagree with that assessment. Especially since your assessment/consultation had nothing in the way of soil/water samples of the area.
This is NOT an article of journalism. This is a piece by an overexcited fan who is a little too blinded by his passion to see beyond it.
In the end… you’re all being duped by the Wilf’s. I don’t recall MLS ever being mentioned by the Wilf’s until now… as the bill is approaching the legislature.
Remember folks: THIS IS ABOUT SUBSIDIZING A STADIUM BEING BUILT FOR THE VIKINGS. NOT GETTING OUR OWN MLS FRANCHISE.
Dear Josh. First off, learn to read. It will help in the future. As we have said 8.5 billion times, we recognize that Wilf is making a gesture about MLS. Our response is to show him our interest and then make him do more than name-check MLS.
AND this discussion is completely separate from the stadium issue. Many of us disagree on whether or not there is public funding. IF they build a stadium we want to make sure that it actually could be used for soccer so that the talk about soccer is more than just talk. That is what this is all about. Everyone I know involved in this is highly skeptical that it would ever happen, but there is a reason we’re drumming up support.
So yeah, try reading next time.
MNFC- I read the article and a few posts. Apologies for not getting to the last paragraph on one of yours. Just so you know, oftentimes “naysaying” is the voice of reason to those misguided by passion.
As an old coach of mine used to say, “do it with passion or don’t do it at all.”
i’m sure at some point he also said, “use your head.”
Great article. Well thought out, and written. Two thumbs up!
Now, only because I am being lazy this cold, and rather unpleasant Minnesota afternoon, to read through all the comments for a potential answer to this question, here goes.
Are there any grass-roots initiatives in the making currently to move the MLS idea forward in the Twin Cities? I would love to be involved. Though I fear I may bring unwanted “Eurosnob” ideas to the table. Forgive me, but the EPL hooked me on soccer. If it weren’t for that, I wouldn’t pay much mind to MLS or the Stars.
If there are any groups, please let me know. If there aren’t, anyone interested in starting one? I’m not even sure where to start, but I would love to give it a go.
Read the comments and check this out:
http://www.mls4mn.com/
and this:
http://is.gd/OhbkMf
to get a better idea.
Bottom line is yes but is in initial stages.
Still too early to get too excited about anything. Save the passion for when it matters. Don’t become pawns of Wilf.,,,,at least not yet. You guys don’t play poker very well do you?
@Brian
Thanks
@tomASS
I think if we get passionate now, we may actually be able to use the Wilfs. This may be a fantastic opportunity. Being negative, and pessimistic will not help our chances. If it’s just a bluff, then let’s get this going and call it. He will be the only one to look like a fool.
@xxLampsCFCxx- we do not hold any face cards, nor have we paired on the flop; plus we are off suit. I am not being negative. We are all hoping for better but we are playing with the short stack and a weak draw and can only be manipulated by the big stack if we allow it.. We can not use the Wilfs at this juncture Let’s check our hand and see what develops on the river. An all in call at this point is only a bluff that is too easily read and manipulated.
If you’re a chess player let me know I will analogize a different scenario for your understanding.
I too want what everyone here suggests. ( former MN Kicks season ticket holder for 5 years. )
No such thing as free or unconditional sex on this stage. Lets play our cards in a wise manner.
Go ahead and manipulate me by talking about something no one else has talked about for quite some time up here in MN, ouch! Then we’ll take that ball and shout so loud that everybody hears us clearly. I’m here standing right in front of you and want to be taken advantage of. Beat me, whip me, and please do it again. I really don’t mind being used when talking about more entertainment choices for myself.
One difference from poker… We get to play in the game and don’t have to put anything on the table. Tell me again what I’m going to lose by talking about the positive things about MN MLS soccer? What are you going to prove anyway by being negative? That the world is a complicated place and whenever we don’t understand something then we should not trust and attack them without any more proof that were right about not trusting them? Bad logic, and all based on fear, you lose this hand because you never got in the game in the first place.
The next person who may come along will see this support and say to themselves, I can work with those people on making this happen, we will not be all alone in taking this risk.
I don’t need to bluff, because I have nothing to lose and everything to gain, this is not a game.
If you want free and unconditional sex, get up from the poker table and go home, find a nice girl and tell her you love her and will support her no mater what happens in the future and she will do anything you wanted and more. Take care of her.
Yes, on corners and crosses.
@jw7 – talk to me after the stadium deal has been put to bed and they really have an agreement. Then tell me how you feel.
jwy wrote: “If you want free and unconditional sex, get up from the poker table and go home, find a nice girl and tell her you love her and will support her no mater what happens in the future and she will do anything you wanted and more. Take care of her”
Insert Wilf instead of your female subject matter here and you will understand better what I am saying and have a good laugh at how silly that notion would be.
Just to do a bit of follow up.
First, thank you to all who complimented me on what was originally just another comment on Brian’s excellent article on the subject. Just standing on the shoulders of giants, that’s me. Glad I was able to add some more thought provoking material to the subject.
To Bart: The why Minnesota for the Wilfs is pretty simple. It was the only NFL franchise up for sale at the time they bought it. They knew that it had plenty of fan support and believed that if they could get a better stadium, they could make more money with it.
To JXU: Current plans call for about 65,000 capacity.
To superrookie: This is still just a proposal. All sides agree that there are various final details to still be negotiated upon before construction begins. As for being a ploy for a better site, probably not. As any long time fanatic of the Minnesota Thunder knows, plausible stadium sites are few and far between, even for a smaller 20,000 seat type stadium, let alone a site big enough for a 65,000 seater with a retail restaurant complex and a parking lot big enough for major tailgating opportunities.
To Stark: I haven’t seen any final decisions on that yet. With a retractable roof, I think grass would be feasible (Milwaukee’s Miller Stadium has a grass field and average winter monthly temps are only about 5 degrees warmer than in Minneapolis.)
To Giggsy: Two points here. First, There are dozens of reasons that a sports franchise underperforms on the field or at the gate. We all are familiar with at least some of them. For gate; poor marketing strategies, economic climate, venue location, sports dollar competition… these are just a few. For on the field; bad signings, coaching problems, team dissention, injuries, unexpected retirements (that one familiar?), etc. But heck, as seamonster points out, up until the last couple of years or so, the on pitch performance has been easily better than average. Four MLS Cup Finals, a US Open Cup, and a Super Liga Cup. If you have any evidence that the reason that the Revs are performing poorly on the pitch or at the gate is because Kraft doesn’t care about the Revs, than produce it. A quote from Kraft, for instance. A statement from a disgruntled former employee. Insider info. I ain’t saying that you’re wrong. I just need more evidence that you’re right. Simply blaming Kraft’s lack of passion for the team’s failures is like saying that the reason Germany lost World War Two is that Hitler didn’t want it enough.
Oh, yeah, and if you are going to claim that the Wilfs feel the same way that Kraft allegedly does, your going to need more than they’re both NFL owners. Again, evidence. After that, you can then tell us how all black people think, how passionate all Muslims are about their religion, and any other unsubstantiated generalizations you may or may not harbor.
Point number two: About this mystical “soccer culture” that Seattle and Portland have so much of and Minnesota so little. Any evidence? I went to the numbers.
Attendance in the NASL for the three markets, coming up. (Blanks mean no team fielded)
Year Sea. Port. Minn.
1975 16,818 14,503 —–
1976 23,828 20166 23,117
1977 24,226 13,208 32,771
1978 22,578 11,803 30,860
1979 18,998 11,172 24,580
1980 24,246 10,210 18,279
1981 18,224 10,516 16,605
1982 12,539 8,786 ——
1983 8,181 ——- ——-
1984 ——– ——- 14,263
Now, let’s do the same for the USL.
Year Sea. Port. Minn.
1997 2873 —— 3852
1998 2902 —— 3543
1999 2243 —— 3126
2000 2143 —— 3588
2001 1885 5974 3512
2002 4087 6261 3862
2003 3357 5871 4101
2004 2874 5281 2961
2005 2885 5553 3135
2006 3826 5576 2611
2007 3325 7250 3151
2008 3386 8568 3573
Wouldn’t the importance of “soccer culture” show up in attendance? Minnesota has led Seattle in attendance more often than not. They also led Portland in attendance in the old NASL by huge margins. And I would attribute Portland’s USL attendance figures, in the main, to the fact that the Timbers had only one major league franchise competing for it’s sports dollar and media electronic and print ink (free advertising) as compared to the multiple major league franchises in Seattle and Minnesota.
While I won’t go so far as to say that Minnesota will equal Seattle’s attendance if they reach the MLS, I feel pretty confidant that they’ll average somewhere in the low 20,000 range, more if they perform well on the pitch.
To Soundersfan: Again, no specific details have been revealed about the exact nature of the interior, but since the Wilfs have mentioned their desire for an MLS franchise with every stadium proposal they have announced they were working on (despite “Josh’s” lack of recall on the subject), I would expect them to take it into account. The recent U of M football stadium was designed with facilities and sightlines for soccer included and they don’t even have a men’s soccer team.
To Miacfan: I have already commented about the “small stadium” preference of the MLS. As for sports saturation, with the population increase that is occurring in the Twin Cities metropolitan area, I see that as a concern only in the area of MAXIMIZING attendance. The team will need to be competitive. Milwaukee is NOWHERE NEAR getting an MLS franchise. Peter Wilt tried for years during the past decade. No big pocket owner, no stadium, and a local government that was absolutely hostile. Look up Peter Wilt’s thread at bigsoccer.com (he contributes to it regularly). To quote one city official “Milwaukee will have pro soccer over my dead body.” As for the Wilfs, you could be right. But you could be wrong, too. Evidence! And as for your final point, it is the sticking one. That is where it would be most likely to run aground, in my opinion.
To Steve Knudson: Wanna check those USL attendance figures again? Please, somebody tell me just what the criterion is for measuring “soccer culture”. ‘Cause if it’s attendance, we’re right up there with anybody else.
To Fugue: Hey, lookie this… http://www.fifa.com/aboutfifa/developing/pitchequipment/footballturf/fqc.html
You can now purchase FIFA RECOMMENDED turf, suitable for all FIFA competitions. Catch up.
To “Josh”: *sigh* I’m so tempted to drag out the disclaimer…lemme think…You know, I think I can make my point without going there.
“Wow, the Wilfs show little MLS nip-slip for attention and the desperate soccer fans are oogling, fawning and generally in a tizzy over the scenario.”
Well, “Josh”, at least you’ve clearly established where your bias lies.
“ This is about a stadium (in Arden Hills? Really Scott, you’re so horny for this that you’re jumping on whatever site is popping up?) being built by billionaires who want us to pay for it with increased taxes while we are pulling funding from schools, medicine, infrastructure in our community.”
Umm, yes, “Josh“. Arden Hills. That’s what the press conferences and news articles and discussions are about. Proposed new stadium in Arden Hills. That’s the site that popped up alright, “Josh“. Arden Hills. Glad you got that part right, anyway.
I’ll address the “horny” comment later.
And again, “Josh”, you’ve made your position perfectly clear on where you stand. Well done, you.
“Wilf knew this was going to be a struggle for support. So now he’s suckered a large portion of the soccer-crowd in the state. Some are even talking about going to the capitol to “raise awareness”. You guys are funny.”
Well, as long as you’re amused…
“Everyone “loves” your article Scott. I’d be interested in a piece that is less speculative, less biased, a little bit more provocative in relation to OUR public funds being used for corporate welfare and some investigation as to what Zygi’s motives are regarding his MLS interests.”
Well, not everyone. *blush* But for those who do and have said so, again, thank you. Your compliments are much appreciated.
“Josh”, as for what you’d be more interested in, noted. I’ll give it all the consideration it deserves. I made part of the article speculative because not all of the details have been worked out. It left room for speculation, I thought. As for the bias, I’ll address that at the same time as the “horny” quote. As for the “more provocative in relation to our public funds” bit…well, I had no interest in writing about how the stadium was to be funded yet. Stadium funding has been brought up and chewed over in so many places at so many times with so many different stadium proposals across the country, I didn’t have anything to say about the subject in general that hasn’t been said before. And I decided not to address the question on this particular stadium proposal until they’re done with the proposal. Kinda like not wanting to review a book until the author actually finishes it. That’s not unreasonable, is it, “Josh“?
“Don’t get so hot for an MLS team that you’ve basically dismiss many valid arguments/concerns with,”Zygi said ‘MLS team’! No questions, Let’s go!” Oh wait, I forgot, you asked your one friend who majored in agriculture about the superfund site…. BAM! you’re ready to go I guess. And while we’re on the topic, I know a few folks who might disagree with that assessment. Especially since your assessment/consultation had nothing in the way of soil/water samples of the area.”
Again, I’m going to deal with the first half or so of that paragraph with those other goodies you’ve strewn about your post. But in regards to your friends, “Josh”, why didn’t you ask your friends and then post their answer here? Then there would have been something in your post that might have added positively to the discussion. You complain about my speculation, but you even speculate about what your friends would say, “Josh“. Can’t even come up with a definite on that. All that complaining about my article, and yet you are unable to rebut ANY of it. Not one bit of evidence for any of your assertions, “Josh“. Just unfounded accusations and denigrating, condescending comments about anyone here who you think has a different opinion than you do.
“This is NOT an article of journalism. This is a piece by an overexcited fan who is a little too blinded by his passion to see beyond it.
Wrong again, “Josh”. This IS an article of EDITORIAL journalism. It contain some of my opinions on the subject along with facts, evidence, lines of reasoning, and informed speculation. I used to read, write and report news for a radio station in Idaho Falls, Idaho under the supervision of AP award-winning news director Bob Ziel. I know what journalism is. You have any evidence that it is not, “Josh“? You haven‘t revealed any so far.
“In the end… you’re all being duped by the Wilf’s. I don’t recall MLS ever being mentioned by the Wilf’s until now… as the bill is approaching the legislature.”
Hey, did you hear, everyone? We’ve all been duped by the Wilfs. Betcha didn’t know you were a dupe, eh, Brian? Superrookie, how ya doin’, you ol’ dupe? Say, sea monster, how does it feel getting duped again by those darn Wilfs?
“Josh”, did you actually put any real thought into your post when you said that everyone here had been duped, as if the only way anyone could come to a different opinion than yours is by being fooled or “suckered“? Did you think before you made up things, in a public forum, about what my views and opinions are? Did you check yourself before you told a falsehood about my partner’s education? Let’s rummage through those quotes of yours I’ve been saving.
“Really Scott, you’re so horny for this that you’re jumping on whatever site is popping up?”
Actually, “Josh”, I didn’t state my opinion on whether or not I want an MLS franchise in Minnesota. Look for a quote in the article that says I do. You won’t find it. Because it isn’t there. You made it up.
Generally speaking, I think the point is debatable. Some would prefer an MLS team because it would bring a better level of soccer to the state (although anyone with of a videotape of the Fire – Whitecaps stinkburger I attended on May 7th would have a pretty powerful piece of rebuttal). Others would miss the level of club/fan intimacy and involvement that you can get with a D-2 club that you probably never could with an MLS franchise.
I’m not going to go into any detail at this time as to my views and why on this (could be a good article later). I’ll just say, “Josh”, that if I had the billion dollars, I’d buy the NSC Stars rather than a Minnesota MLS franchise. Read that again, “Josh”. Just to make sure it sinks in. You stated an opinion of mine that isn’t mine. In public.
“Don’t get so hot for an MLS team that you’ve basically dismiss many valid arguments/concerns with,”Zygi said ‘MLS team’! No questions, Let’s go!”
Not hot for MLS, “Josh”. You’ve just reiterated a falsehood you’ve told everyone here about my opinion on the matter.
I didn’t dismiss anyone’s arguments with “Zygi said ‘MLS team’! No questions, Let’s go!” That quote (and you did put in quotes, meaning that you claimed to be quoting me) does not appear in my article anywhere, “Josh”. You made it up. Again.
THESE are quotes I made in reference to the Wilfs:
“You can’t trust the Wilfs.” Well, mebbe yes, mebbe no.”
“Always keep an eye on suits moving money” is one of my most basic beliefs.”
“If they get an MLS franchise, they won’t spend enough to make it competitive.” Well, they’ve spent money on the Vikings, so far. I realize that that is, at least in part, to make the team more attractive to convince people that they don’t want them to leave.”
None of these ACTUAL quotes bears any resemblance, in any way, to the fictional crap you attributed to me.
What I did do was offer some alternative theories to the conclusions or suspicions that some people were voicing here and elsewhere. I also asked for evidence when accusations against people and organizations were made since unsupported allegations serve no good purpose. I explained why I thought the Wilfs did what they did, why I thought the MLS would like what is being attempted, and why the politicians might find the situation palatable.
At no time did I express my opinion as to whether to support this effort or not. Nor did I urge anyone else to support it. And I am not urging anyone to support or oppose it now. Any bias you perceive is a figment of your imagination. It is an invention of yours that bears no resemblance to my article or views. Judging from your post, it is my opinion that you are projecting your flawed reasoning and susceptibility to bias onto me and anyone else who disagrees with you. It appears to me that, in your passion on the subject, you have become so focused on reading between the lines, that you are paying little attention to the lines themselves. This last quote of yours I’ll site is a perfect example.
“ Oh wait, I forgot, you asked your one friend who majored in agriculture about the superfund site…. “
Go back, “Josh”. Read the paragraph where I mention Joan again. I didn’t say she majored in Agriculture. I said she majored in Architecture. You…made…it…up.
And just to put the rancid cherry on the scum sundae you’ve posted here, “Josh“, Joan and I are having parts of our lives and views fictionalized in a public forum for the world to see by a faceless individual appearing to hide behind the anonymity that the web affords.
“Josh”, your post stinks. Your post stinks on ice. It stinks on dry ice. It stinks encased in a ten foot square block of dry ice deposited at the bottom of the Bentley Subglacial Trench.
In the end…I suggest you examine your approach to a reasoned discussion rather than simply vomiting the biased, logically crippled, factually distorted primal scream therapy you pass off as a post.
Tom: You just don’t get it do you?
If you want to talk about the stadium after it doesn’t work, then we’ll talk… You’ll be, one more that wants to talk about soccer again. The door has been opened and will we use our opportunity for what it is (at the moment) a tool to attract new people to our current product.
And yes, you can be “right”, if that’s what you need today.
I love it when people come into a conversation, don’t bother to figure out what has already been said and then assume whatever has popped into their head hasn’t occurred to any other person ever in the history of living.
That goes out to you TomASS and other future commenters who will not read this because reading is hard.
@jw7 -You do happen to understand that the site location and all the financial trappings are far from agreed upon, correct? Here is a man willing to try to move, or at least posture, a storied sports franchise to So Cal if he can’t get a stadium here.
So explain it to me like I am a third grader, since your name calling debating skills seem to be appropriate for that grade level. How is the stadium discussion and possible stadium plan a possible opportunity, at this moment, a tool to attract new people to the current soccer product?
I prefer clarity over agreement.
@MN Nice FC – reading is not hard, but thanks for assuming it might be. I have read the article over twice now- my point is, and continues to be, the MN soccer fans are getting too hyped before they should be.
I would love to see a MLS team here as much as anyone.
I thought posts were for the expressed purpose of expressing opinions and debates. I have read many of you past posts. You are inferring and including yourself in your position about redundant thoughts then?
If all of you fine folks in MN push the Wilf’s hard enough, you will probably find that in addition to them throwing in MLS soccer, they just might promise to open up a Rugby and Cricket team so that those games can be played in the new venue as well.
While I agree with BQ that being positive about the soccer positioning is a good thing to do, TomASS is correct, the documents are not signed, the good hearted taxpayers of MN will bear the cost of this new venue, and if the Wilf’s don’t get their way on this, they very well move to a market that will bend over for them.
Look at the new Cowboys stadium, it was hundreds of millions of dollars over budget, and the loyal citizens of Irving Texas have one heck of a debt burden on their shoulders.
Frankly, the stadium needs to come together first with the NFL, and then if soccer is to be, then the Wilf’s as businessmen would recognize it makes sense and work on closing that step of the deal.
But this may seem too logical to certain those of you that desperately want MLS soccer in MN. However, it is the way this deal will go down, MLS will not be a driver in the transaction. That would be peanuts to what the NFL side of the business will bring to the table.
TomASS,
The point is that several of us have repeatedly answer these complaints. The point of our ardent support is that nothing is set in stone yet. If all the plans for a stadium have been drawn up with nothing more than a name-check to MLS, then they will probably build the thing only to realize that it cannot be used for professional soccer.
The crazies of us only want to use this opportunity to say: we don’t care about the logistics of where or with whose money it’s built. That is for another discussion. We only want A) to give Wilf the idea that maybe MLS is an idea to be taken seriously B) if soccer is a tentative plan, that idea should be taken into consideration when they’re building the stadium C) to further the cause of getting soccer into the zeitgeist of our community.
The article points out that MLS could happen here. We are simply trying to capitalize on the fact that KFAN and lots of other people have suddenly been saying the “S” word in a non-World Cup year. If this turns to nothing and all we get is a few more supporters at Stars games, I’d be happy with that. I just want to use this moment to get people thinking soccer.
How’s that?
No more poker metaphors.
Yep Bart and tom are right, we just don’t understand because we are stupid idiots and need then to explain everything to us because we are not smart like them.
Do you think this is the very first time we have thought about this newbe (t)?
WE ALL UNDERSTAND THE DOWNSIDE AND ACCEPT ALL THAT, BUT WILL INTENTIONALLY ALLOW OUE SELVES TO BE VENERABLE BECAUSE IT IS SOMETHING WE LOVE AND HAVE NOTHING TO LOSE.
*And I have a right to be mad at you and call you names when come on here and just rain on everybody else’s parade. Do you really think you were the first to think of all those negative things? Really? That kinda proves just how smart you are!
Wow – you know an argument is weak and lacks substances when one has to get angry and name call.
Was seeking clarity over agreement which is in most cases a better thing when it is clear the former will not be reached.
Never refereed to either of you as stupid, idiots. That would take away from any legitimate discussion we are trying to have.
Were either of you two ( jw7 and MN Nice FC) season ticket holders to the MN Kicks for 6 years? Two of the years when I was in HS and had to drive one hour one way to get to a game. I would love for that type of atmosphere to exist again. I bled orange and sky blue. I’ve done the hype and parade before. But soccer is a business first, especially to a business man like Wilf who will generate 95% of his revenue, in this business venture from Viking events.
Go ahead and get all excited and pumped, but a little bit of of rain should never spoil anyone’s parade ……….if it’s a legitimate one.
KFAN is still on? I prefer Reusse and Garage Logic on 1500.
Yeah, the name calling is too much. Agreed. But now that I read your last post, I’m really confused as to what your point is. It’s not that you rained on our parade, it’s that we already thought of the rain, put on extra coats but refused to stay inside. How’s that for an extended metaphor?
http://screencast.com/t/bZCN7EYxfSy
Yes, I was at most all of the kicks games at the met and also made most all of the Kicks indoor games during their two seasons playing on top of the hockey rink.
Above is a photo I shot of Georigo Chinagila from inside the New York Cosmos locker room after their lose to the Kicks in 1979 when over 40,000 fans showed up. I also have the game report sheet and a photo of the scoreboard with the attendance that night.
Did you play HS soccer? We may have played.
JW7′s name calling has been removed and he’s been yellow carded, an idea he had about a year ago when he and I got into it once.
If he name calls again you know what happens with the second yellow.
IMS has always been a place where everyone is welcome and encouraged to share their ideas and should not be stifled by those who feel they have the end all answer to everything or to those that name call.
I agree we don’t need name calling on this site. And I apologize.
And so then, I should then get my due process of law and a closing defense argument to present now that you have censored my posts.
His name is listed as tomAss I just changed that to another one of his body parts, and never called anyone any names during the discussion. tomAss kinda left that door open IMO.
@JW7
You ever considered that tomASS may in fact be the first three letters of his first and last name?
Once does not have to get the mind in the gutter with this, and no, I would not think that leaves the door open.
The name calling comments are frankly downright childish and rude, but BQ has already addressed this.
So, how about MLS in MN with a new stadium?
Something that I think Bart and tomASS need to consider is that by us taking it to the next level, before the chickens have hatched, actually can help the Wilfs get their stadium. If we provide a solid base for a grass-roots campaign, it could only help push the Wilfs further to meet with MLS in regards to bringing us a franchise. It shows support, plain and simple.
Also, I am sure that the legislature and Ramsey County probably have already written the MLS link off as lip-service. But if we show them otherwise, it may bring the Arden Hills location closer to completion.
Negativity gets us no where, where being positive gets us one step further than where we are now, which at the current moment is in fact, nowhere.
So let’s get passionate about this, we have NOTHING to lose, and maybe a MLS team to gain.
@xxLampsCFCxx go for it, but I don’t get it. I just don’t believe the Wilfs have MLS as high up on their priority list as many of you do considering everything else that is at stake for their business.
jw7 – Fridley & Cambridge did not have HS soccer at that time. Just played club soccer with college soccer at the University of Southern Maine
TomASS. Agreed. They don’t have it high on their priority list. That’s why we’re trying to drum up support for the issue. If we can get enough buzz going then Wilf might start to say, “hmmm, maybe that would be a good idea.”
It’s crazy, right? But being a soccer fan is about being a bit crazy.
@MN Nice FC – I just believe that if the Wilfs were serious, it would have been a priority since the inception of their stadium battle, and not a recent ploy. I would think if it was a priority for him he would have been stoking the flames of the fans rather than vice versa.
I still don’t buy it that its important to them, but carry on and don’t stop believing just because I disagree. Would love to be proven wrong.
” My Uncle Terwilliger on the Art of Eating Popovers”
My uncle ordered popovers
from the restaurant’s bill of fare.
And, when they were served,
he regarded them
with a penetrating stare
Then he spoke great Words of Wisdom
as he sat there on that chair:
“To eat these things,”
said my uncle,
“you must exercise great care.
You may swallow down what’s solid
BUT
you must spit out the air!”
And
as you partake of the world’s bill of fare,
that’s darned good advice to follow.
Do a lot of spitting out the hot air.
And be careful what you swallow.
with my apologies to Theodor Seuss Geisel from his 1977 ( a great year) Lake Forest College commencement address.
Okay, I guess I should have put a bit more emphasis on this part of the equation.
Of course, the primary tenant and main driving force behind this stadium is the Vikings. They’ll be the big money maker for the facility, obviously. Everybody knows this. Everybody. But they aren’t going to want the stadium to sit idle for the rest of the year, are they?
Here’s why the Wilfs want an MLS team.
First, the MLS is not bleeding money like it used to. Much of the MLS’s admittedly huge initial investment costs have been paid off. Secondly, at least 4 teams are showing an independent profit on operations: Seattle, L.A., Dallas and Toronto. And when you add in the profits of SUM (Soccer United Marketing, the promotional rights arm of MLS of which each franchise gets a split from)…
http://www.sumworld.com/company-overview/
it turns out that most MLS franchises are actually making money or are breaking even. Most of the current trends (attendance, TV ratings, sponsorships, ad income, etc.) are on the upswing, indicating more revenue in the near future.
The operating costs of an MLS team are much smaller than an NFL team. For instance, Portland’s MLS bid figured operating expenses to be about $9.4 million for it’s first season. The Minnesota Vikings player payroll alone is at $140 Million. The extra amount of money outroll for the Wilfs would be small change, relatively speaking.
And most importantly, the new Vikings Stadium is going to need other events to cover some of the 355 to 351 days the Vikings aren’t using it to generate more stadium income and serve as a magnet for all the restaurants, retail stores and other attractions in the development he will build around the stadium on the land he will own.
Now the Wilfs have a choice. They can fill 19 of those dates with an MLS team they own (22 if a few friendlies are included, up to 26 if they go all the way in the playoffs, up to 30 if they win the US Open Cup, up to 36 if they pull off the treble with the CONCACAF Champions Cup and 37 if they host the MLS All-Star Game) or they can fill those dates with things like Monster Truck Rallies, Promise Keepers meetings, WWE wrestling events and concerts featuring various musical acts like…say, Kenny Chesney, for instance.
It zoggles my mind that I’m having to go through this. For the next three paragraphs, you should imagine all names and words in all caps are being read to you by a resurrected Sam Kinison in full voice.
Now, if Kenny Chesney plays one of those dates, then most of the REVENUE generated by the gate receipts and merchandise sales and other stuff will…go…to…KENNY CHESNEY AND HIS PROMOTERS!
However…keep following me, we’re almost there…if an MLS team owned by the Wilfs plays on that date instead, then most of the REVENUE generated by gate receipts and merchandise sales and other stuff…will…go…to…THE WIIIIIIIIILFS!!!!!
SO, HERE’S THE CHOICE facing Jeffrey, Lionel, Mark and Zygi. Either have the income from up to thirty-seven different dates going to an assortment of traveling greasemonkeys, big-haired evanglists, ‘roided-up grapplers and wandering minstrels…or To THE WIIIIIIIIIILFS!!!!!
Really? I really had to explain this? Really?
Tom when the time is right (which is not now) I’ll personally e-mail you so you can come back and say: I told you so.
It seems to be the only point you want to make.
Come out the NSC and watch the Stars play, they have been very good soccer entertainment lately. I’m guessing you are a soccer person and will welcome you with open arms, it almost as fun as the old kicks games (we still have some work to do and could use your experience and help).
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=34wJt3pRY0w
Believe, try it, you might just like it.
@uhclem – I love Sam Kinison !
rebuttals:
* Stadium is a sunk cost, it does not have to make money in its down time because it is not losing money sitting empty. Now is it beneficial to keep a “factory” at full capacity year round? Absolutely in the manufacturing industry. Not such a great need in the NFL.
* MLS Revenue exclusively to the Wilfs . oh wait you forgot to cover overhead and operations of a MLS team which, if subtracted from revenue = profit or losses. That of course depends on many factors, but bottom line ( pardon the pun) Will the bottom line be that attractive with all involved in operating and owning an MLS team?
Profitable? Possibly, but attractive enough to an NFL owner who is guaranteed no losses if the stadium sits empty or if he leases to other events?
* Leased dates to other events – I would check the contribution level you indicate, no facility will lease unless they are making money doing so. The question then becomes is that profit better or worse then owning a MLS team? If Wilf has his way in development of retail/restaurants/hotels – he would benefit by holding events that would draw overnight guests. An MSL team probably would not achieve that – and the other soccer events are “maybe” events. I see Wilf looking for that overnight guest who will drop money on a room, food, drinks creating a greater spend per individual even after an event that they still made money hosting.
So its not as simple as you indicate
I’m pretty sure tomASS is on here simply to rile up. He probably doesn’t actually even like soccer, or he’s the epitome of Eurosnob, and hates the MLS.
I’d stop wasting your time responding to him. I know I am.
Let’s get a MLS team in Minnesota!
Donavan!
Thanks for the bump.
tomASS, do you really think that the Wilfs are not interested in maximizing their profits? More events, more income. Oh and it would also explain why EVERY MAJOR PROFESSIONAL SPORTS VENUE IN THE STATE SINCE 1960 has booked other events when their primary tenants were not using the buildings. Minnesota Sports and Entertainment, the entity that owns the Wild buying the rights for an NLL franchise and creating the Swarm to fill more dates at the Xcel Energy Center, is the most recent and most relevant example of just this.
And no, I didn’t skip the costs of running an MLS franchise. Go back and read about what Portland estimated their operating costs to be. Second paragraph after the link. The first paragraph before the link and the first paragraph after the link explain why MLS is much more financially attractive than just a few years ago. Re-read that, while you are at it.
And as for alternative events being more profitable, I’m going to need to see more numbers on that before I believe it. And actually, sports teams draw overnight visitors all the time. Ask Bruce at DuNord.com. Many Thunder/Stars supporters have traveled to away games and even MLS games and stayed overnight, me being one of them. Hotel rooms have been rented, meals bought and eaten, drinks drunk, whole ball over. I don’t have the exact figures, but neither do you.
As a matter of fact, your entire response doesn’t have a single stat, fact or bit of evidence in it. Not a link to a site, not a quote from an expert that contradicts what I am saying, not even an anecdote.
All you have is a series of questions that you don’t know the answers to (and for all I know haven’t even tried to answer yourself) and a handful of proclamations backed by absolutely nothing.
You don’t know if the bottom line will be that attractive? I think so and introduced a few facts and pieces of evidence to back it up. Not a full financial report, but that would take pages and pages. I’ve read a few, like the Portland MLS bid. Have you read any? You got a question about the bottom line being attractive, answer it yourself. Do the work, if you’re going to take the time and trouble to write about it.
And no facility leasing unless they make money at it? Geez, you’ve never been in the business. I have worked for the Guthrie Theatre as a production assistant, I have been a stagehand working off the extra board under IATSE Local 13 (the stagehands union, in laymen’s terms) done time as local stand-up comedian, handled lights and sound for the late, great Comedy Gallery at Riverplace In Minneapolis, and worked as boardswitcher, producer,sports producer, reporter, writer and “on-air talent” for KID AM/K96FM Radio in Idaho Falls, Idaho, which was the local producer for two country music concerts in the Upper Snake River region of the state. And you are going to tell me that no facility has rented without making money at it?! Have you ever had ANY connection with the business you are so blithely writing about?
I am not claiming to be a show business or sports big wheel. But I have had to work under and got to have conversations with them. I can guarantee you that venues take losses on events they have scheduled all the time. I would guesstimate that every calender day of the year, that there is a venue somewhere in the US losing money on an event they have booked.
Why don’t you do some research? Then you can answer your own questions. Then if the answers you come up with are different than mine, we can compare evidence and go from there. Until then you just appear to be a mixer having a go.
Oops, sorry. One more point. If it’s not used, it doesn’t lose money?!?! Do you think they have a freeze time button that preserves everything just as they leave it? Do you think they turn off the power to EVERYTHING? You don’t think that someone has to keep the place dusted, at least? Try leaving a house empty and unoccupied for 7 straight months and see if it remains exactly as you left it, no cleaning or repairing to be done. And if damage from strong storms or other acts of God occur in February, you gonna just leave that until next August?
Are you under the impression that these places have no security personnel on-site to monitor the site. No security cameras? Think they switch off all the clocks?
And if you have a cleaning crew to keep the place from looking like the Munster’s mansion, you’ll have to turn on some lights and utilize at least a minimal amount of climate control. You’re already talking thousands of dollars just in that. If damage or equipment failure occurs, just because no one is scheduled in the next week or so doesn’t mean you just let it ride. If it’s empty, it DOES lose money.
Holy Marone! Just where do you come up with stuff like that?
I want a freeze time button.
@jw7 – I have been to 5 games last year and one this year. With plans for more , but in no way is this almost comparable to the Kicks games.
@xxLampsCFCxx – “you’ll never walk alone” but would love to see a MLS team here
@uhclem
1) Maximizing profits – absolutely on the MN Vikings. Also remember the Wilf’s out of pocket expense for the stadium is in no way as great as the State’s. Once built the stadium is a sunk cost to them
2) Operating Costs – you compare the operating cost of a MLS team to not being as great as an NFL team. You can’t compare the two and consider it chump change for the Wilfs. You need to compare it solely to the profitability of the MLS operation.
3) Swarm & Wild – same customer base, most lacrosse fans here are also hockey fans due to the nature of the sports. My understanding from the ownership is the Swarm will not make money this year.
4) The Stadium costs you detail while it sits during the off season – is already covered in the annual operating budget of the Vikings. They are not in a great need to worry about those stadium expenses they are covered by the Vikings. It is not losing them any money while it sits idle. they are in no need to financially do anything during the idle time.
5) Traveling soccer fans – not plentiful enough to even calculate. Some? yes, enough? no
This sounds like a discussion that should take place over a beer at my next Stars game so I can take you through all the trappings of a financial deal of this magnitude.
You are letting your emotions dictate your financial thinking. ” Its not personal, its business”
PS – the best money making “idle stadium” venture the Wilfs could do would be steal the Twins stadium tour idea. Low overhead, high return, and streams of people participating.
Also, to anyone who is dissing on tomASS: He is a long time reader and contributor to the IMS comments and is a long time coach in Minnesota. He also knows business quite well so lets give him his dues. Just because he’s not going along with everyone doesn’t mean he is from the evil empire. He has also gone to many, many Thunder and Stars games over the years and had joined with the Dark Clouds for watch parties. I’m glad he’s not a sheep and is giving a counter to what everyone is drumming up. Heck, even I am having mixed feelings about supporting this.
TomASS,
I appreciate the discussion, but again, I’m not really sure what your end game is. If Wilf doesn’t really want an MLS team and we never get one, then ok. If we organize and try to drum up support to get him to think “huh, maybe this would be a good idea,” then we’ve won. If we waste our time dreaming for what won’t come, then at least we’ve helped promote professional soccer and maybe we get more fans out to see the Stars.
I realize that you’re trying to bring a bit of realism to what seems like over-zealousness, but seriously, who cares? That’s like walking around a stadium, telling fans “you’re never going to win the title, so why are you cheering?” I don’t get excited about soccer (or the idea of an MLS team) because it’s a winning proposition. I get excited about an MLS team, because I’m eff-ing crazy and I love soccer.
So seriously, what is your end game here?
I’ll wear my 1950′s US Men’s national team jersey with tomASS on the back to the next game I attend, so you may approach me for a civil dialogue if you wish.
You can probably sway my thinking some with a handshake with one hand and a beer for me in the other
Brian, I’m ok with people dissing on my opinions. I create polarity with my them, that is why I am not in politics.
As I will always stress I would rather have clarity than agreement
@ MN Nice FC – the end game is to express my opinion and make people realize they need to add some realism to their thought process.
PS – I would walk around the stands telling cheering people they will never win the title, only if they are the opposition though.
@ tomASS – If MLS ever comes to Minnesota, I expect you to be last to enter through the turnstiles. However, mentioning your 1950′s USA jersey and quoting only the most famous supporters song in all of football-dom, I suspect that you’ll be one of the first to buy season tickets, first to tailgate, and first to say you supported the movement all along.
GO MLS4MN!
xxLampsCFCxx, Did you read what I wrote above? I’m expecting that @ tomASS was supporting and involved with pro and amateur soccer since before you were a twinkle in your fathers eye. Sheesh! Rough crowd.
@xxLampsCFCxx – I would love to be first in line, but believe that many more on here would be more deserving of that distinction.
I will buy season tickets, I will be tailgating if the MLS comes to MN. If the Wilfs are involved, I know the Norsemen have been mentioned, but they could also copy the name of my Stavanger, Norway club FC Vikings, but I don’t think I want to be that closely associated with the MN Vikings.
Cheers – see you soon, hopefully my old school Tofts MN Kicks jersey that I ordered today arrives before the next home game
@xxLampsCFCxx , and no I will not be claiming I supported this along. I speak my mind and if I am wrong I will be the first to admit it.
If you want a formal written apology on here if this comes true, then so be it. I have no problem with that.
“Besides being a conservative area generally (and to paint with a broad brush, soccer is not the sports passion of conservatives), when the old NASL teams started moving or dying, they did so, with a couple of exceptions, from the Southeast up. And remember, the only two MLS teams ever to be shut down were Miami and Tampa Bay in 2001. ”
Not this nonsense again. The old NASL didn’t start dying from the southeast up. The Tampa Bay Rowdies were outdrawing the Kicks from 1979 onwards, and they lasted for a decade after the NASL folded. The Strikers also drew well in Ft. Lauderdale, and only moved to Minnesota in 1984 due to indoor soccer. The Southeast was quite well represented in NASL until the last year (due again to the fact that Ft. Lauderdale didn’t have an indoor arena) and even had a southern division (including Tulsa) in 1983.
As for MLS contraction in 2001, only the ignorant continue to insist that it had anything to do with attendance. If low attendance had been the reason for contraction, then San Jose, Kansas City, Colorado, Dallas and others all could have been candidates for contraction due to low attendance at various points circa 1996-2001. The Florida teams were not the worst in MLS attendance, especially Miami as its team got better by 2001. Miami (which actually played in Ft. Lauderdale) was contracted because its owner couldn’t afford MLS and never should have been an MLS owner. Tampa was contracted because it had no owner, was “owned” by the league and was being run into the ground by MLS mismanagement (no one cares about the red headed step child – that’s why he gets beaten), and in addition the rent of the new Raymond James stadium was ludicrously high and MLS contracted Tampa simply to get out from underneath that rental contract.
That’s it. It had nothing to do with poor attendance; considering that the Mutiny sucked and they had no ownership and that MLS deliberately crapped on the Rowdies legacy which was still very much alive in Tampa, it is a wonder that the Mutiny drew as well as they did. Moreover it didn’t help that many of the fans in Tampa knew the NASL at its best, and found the early MLS experience to be downright dull and lifeless in comparison to the Rowdies in the old NASL. MLS went to Tampa in the first place, without an owner, because of the good reputation for soccer fandom that the Rowdies had created in the first place. MLS wouldn’t have gone to Tampa if that Rowdies legacy had not existed – unfortunately MLS refused to build on that legacy or learn anything from it. Florida, like the Pacific Northwest, would have been better off if it had not been in MLS 1.0 at all: we’d probably be launching MLS 2.0 teams in Florida by now based on the old NASL legacy much like has happened in the Pacific Northwest. But no, MLS had to come in and screw the pooch – and after it messed it up, you guys want to blame the fans in Florida instead of the people who messed it up: ie MLS 1.0.
Florida is a soccer hotbed. If you think Florida is nothing but rednecks and retirees, you don’t know Florida. Please stop attacking other regions of the country so as to try to make your own area look better.
Florida is a soccer hotbed, been there, seen it.
My be going back again this winter. My guess is florida will have another MLS team before MN does. I want to see them both get teams, they both deserve it.
For a Rowdies fan, rowdies is a pretty bright guy. LOL Just a little rivalry humor there. But actually, the rivalry part, is a legit point. The Cascadia Cup matchups seem to be the most anticipated series of MLS matches in a long time. Club soccer all over the world flourishes from top notch, long time rivalries. Rowdies is 100% correct in his assessment of MLS in Florida. What needs to happen next is the Rowdies need to get the rights to their name back, and have an opportunity to market themselves as such, just the way the Strikers have this year. My money says they’d be similarly successful in doing so. Then you have exactly what seems to create buzz and draw coverage in MLS now – a historic pro soccer rivalry. If these two teams could build their fanbases and they had the aspirations to get into MLS, to me, they’d be a perfect fit to compliment what we now see in the opposite corner of the continent.
Now obviously it’s not the simple. There are many obstacles in the way: the Rowdies trademark acquisition, the Rowdies getting a stadium plan together, investor commitment to MLS level costs, and now Orlando seems to be an issue, especially for Tampa considering their proximity. But for anyone to just dismiss these two markets based on the misinformation that they already had their chance and blew it themselves, is just ridiculous. I’d be perfectly content to continue purchasing my Strikers season tickets with them being a part of a growing, thriving NASL D2. But I’d also be just as happy to pony up for MLS ticket prices for my seats right on the midfield stripe at Lockhart as well!
Rowdies, You are correct. Florida is not just full of rednecks and retirees. There are also a ton of racists and rubes here as well.
Rookie… LOL! It’s not even hot yet down there? Just wait until you get cranky from the heat.
If you were further south you might even have something to say about the 90 year old drivers in the left lane of the turnpike that the government charges you $5.50 a day to drive to work on. LOL!
On the other side of the coin, I wore shorts all winter long, and HAD a good tan when I left. Now over a month after being back I have yet to put my shorts back on yet and I’m getting pasty white again very quickly??
The yin and yang of life I guess.
For certain an MLS team would do well in the Twin Cities.
The Minneapolis/St. Paul area is in many ways; ( culturally, politically, in terms of sports) more like Seattle or Portland or the Canadian cities than it is like the more conservative parts of the midwest and south. And soccer does well in Seattle and Portland and Canada.
I don’t like your broad brush stroke Scott.
There are plenty conservative, GOP, free market loving, carry-the-overwhelming-vast-majority of the tax burden load . . . . contributors, who also love soccer. MLS is a business, like the NFL, NBA, MLB, NHL, PGA, NASCAR, etc.
Those owners want fans, especially those with disposable income. Besides, somebody has to buy those club seats and suites from the team.
Outside that little jab at your fellow soccer fans who are not liberals, you wrote a pretty good article Scott.
I hope MN gets MLS and I’ll support the effort as much as a guy can from Chicagoland. I would definitely travel with my club to the Twin Cities to watch and enjoy a game (since I’ll be going there anyway and sending my greedy, conservative money to pay for my kid’s college at the UofM soon).
Sincerely – Conservative, ex-Grid Iron player from Texas, USNT traveling, proud member of the local supporter’s club for 11 years, MLS season ticket holder since 2000 and to top it all off . . . oil and gas trader.
Fireman451
(don’t forget to top off your tank!)